Sergio Leone Web Board

Films of Sergio Leone => Duck, You Sucker => Topic started by: SeanSeanSean on October 23, 2010, 04:43:57 PM



Title: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: SeanSeanSean on October 23, 2010, 04:43:57 PM
While watching the pub scene I wonder how Sean/John escapes.
Prior to the shooting of the 2 army officers and the other Sean, we see many policemen in the doorway.
He just coudn't have casually walked pass all of them.
Did he get caught and escape from prison?


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: stanton on October 24, 2010, 01:46:10 AM
The film does not explain it. There is also no need to explain it as it is not important for the film. 

Your guess how he did it is as good as any other.
My guess: In good SW manner Sean simply shoots them all. ;)


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: Dust Devil on October 24, 2010, 01:21:18 PM
The film does not explain it. There is also no need to explain it as it is not important for the film. 

Your guess how he did it is as good as any other.
My guess: In good SW manner Sean simply shoots them all. ;)

My two cents as well.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: dave jenkins on October 24, 2010, 06:05:17 PM
Thirded.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: SeanSeanSean on October 25, 2010, 01:35:01 PM
So we all agree that there is nothing to be found in the film to explain this.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: stanton on October 25, 2010, 01:59:42 PM
Yep, nothing, but as I said, I don't think the film needs an explanation for this.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: Groggy on October 25, 2010, 05:07:48 PM
Sean would give Lucas McCain a run for his money if he can outgun a squad of coppers with an Enfield.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: dave jenkins on October 26, 2010, 02:37:20 PM
What makes you think Firecracker had only the Enfield?


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: Groggy on October 26, 2010, 03:06:24 PM
We don't see anything else.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: dave jenkins on October 26, 2010, 03:57:51 PM
We see Firecracker, the living embodiment of ordnance.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: SeanSeanSean on October 28, 2010, 09:18:31 AM
We don't see anything else.
It remains odd to me that Leone didn't take this in account when he filmed the scene. No other scene in any other of his movies, as far as I know, is not self explanatory whether in the images or if need be, in the dialogue.
(Maybe 1: Harmonica's facial scare from the deleted fight scene, but we know it's origin now)


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: Groggy on October 28, 2010, 11:05:47 AM
The closest equivalent I can think of is the flashback in The Quiet Man. We don't find out how John Wayne's character got away with killing a man in the ring and escaped to Ireland. Does it really matter?


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: SeanSeanSean on October 28, 2010, 02:21:41 PM
The closest equivalent I can think of is the flashback in The Quiet Man. We don't find out how John Wayne's character got away with killing a man in the ring and escaped to Ireland. Does it really matter?
No, it doesn't really matter to the storyline but I find it odd that Leone's legendary attention to detail was overlooked in this pivotal scene.
BTW, did any1 notice the way the second officer falls to the ground? He puts his hands out to protect the first fallen actor. I doubt very much when your shot dead you care how or where you fall. That alone should have warranted a reshoot IMHO.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: Groggy on October 28, 2010, 03:29:25 PM
Well, remember that we don't get a whole lot of background in OUATITW's flashbacks either. How did Harmonica survive, or rather why didn't Frank and Co. kill him? Leaving the door open for the CJ-sanctioned "Harmonica is a ghost" theory. Leone in general didn't feel a need to explain things in pedantic detail.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: dave jenkins on October 29, 2010, 10:25:04 AM
Now that you mention it, how did Indio get away after killing Moritmer's sister's husband? No reason to suppose they're living out in the middle of nowhere--more than likely, they're on the family plantation in Carolina. There'd be plenty of people to come running when that first shot sounds. And even if Indio were able to make tracks initially, the posse that would chase after him would be formidable and determined. How did Leone neglect to account for these things?

In point of fact, SL's flashback technique, learned from Ford and others, uses a minimalist approach, and for very good reason: time is a film's most precious resource, and must be spent judiciously.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: Groggy on October 29, 2010, 02:56:19 PM
In point of fact, SL's flashback technique, learned from Ford and others, uses a minimalist approach, and for very good reason: time is a film's most precious resource, and must be spent judiciously.

Hear hear! O0


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: SeanSeanSean on October 30, 2010, 07:54:13 AM
...
In point of fact, SL's flashback technique, learned from Ford and others, uses a minimalist approach, and for very good reason: time is a film's most precious resource, and must be spent judiciously.
Interesting!
But wasn't Leone precisely criticized for his sprawling epics from TGTBATU and on?


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: dave jenkins on October 30, 2010, 11:37:09 AM
Sure. But his flashbacks in particular are models of efficiency.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: O'Cangaceiro on October 31, 2010, 02:50:19 AM
Now that you mention it, how did Indio get away after killing Moritmer's sister's husband? No reason to suppose they're living out in the middle of nowhere--more than likely, they're on the family plantation in Carolina.
Aren't North and South Carolina a bitt too far away from Mexico anyway? Or are you talking about a different Carolina here? ???


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: cigar joe on October 31, 2010, 06:34:25 AM
Aren't North and South Carolina a bitt too far away from Mexico anyway? Or are you talking about a different Carolina here? ???

I was always under the impression that possibly Mortimer's younger/baby sister and her husband had migrated to Texas to start a new life, so I never thought that part of the film ever took place in the Carolinas. That would also explain why it possibly took that long for Mortimer to track down Indio. If there were no witnesses to the incident, he would have had no idea who did the deed. So he would have had to travel to Texas. I'll also presume that Mortimer honed his skills as a bounty killer while doing some investigating/detective work, and he probably finally got a lead on who done it when he heard rumors about a crazy Mexican bandit who had a musical pocket watch fetish, no?


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: Cusser on October 31, 2010, 08:17:02 AM
And in reality: how many Mexicans would ever get to Carolina area anyway in those days?  I surmise maybe the sister lived in Texas...


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: O'Cangaceiro on October 31, 2010, 11:08:26 AM
And in reality: how many Mexicans would ever get to Carolina area anyway in those days?  I surmise maybe the sister lived in Texas...

This makes a lot of sense to me. The Leone movies were filmed mostly in the Almeria area, and the landscape of the Tabernas desert is remarkably similiar to some of the deserts in the New Mexico-Arizona-Texas and Mexico areas.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: tintinteslacoil on January 22, 2011, 11:24:06 PM
Re: the escape, not Col. Mortimer...

John probably blasts his way out; what else? It doesn't say in the book.  We never saw what he had in the newspaper--it handled like a rifle but shot real fast, like an automatic pistol.  He just grabbed and bam, bam, bammm...     Maybe some dynamite, too?   The universal excuse: " It's in the script."



Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: dave jenkins on January 23, 2011, 03:19:55 PM
Over at the other thread (http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=9932.0) consensus is building that Sean/John didn't escape the pub.

In which case, the John/Sean we see in Mexico is a supernatural apparition (like Harmonica in OUATITW, and Noodles in OUATIA). That might make sense if Purgatory is supposed to resemble Mexico and John/Sean has been sent there to do penance. Mission accomplished, he rises to the next level, which is either Heaven or Ireland, depending on your preference.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: tintinteslacoil on January 26, 2011, 04:33:53 PM
Interesting!  I knew there was a lot more going on in DYS than most other Leone's, but not transcendentalism! ;D


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 14, 2011, 05:22:17 PM
How did Harmonica survive, or rather why didn't Frank and Co. kill him?

That never bothered me at all. Harmonica was a little kid; it may well be that Frank had some beef with his older brother, but no real problem with Harmonica himself. (Of course, Frank does kill a little kid later in his life, but there he had a "reason" to, and maybe he got more "careful" about rubbing out all witnesses later in life  ;)) in Harmonica's case, it could be Frank was just out to get rid of the brother who he hated; and since he had nothing against Harmonica himself, Frank didn't feel the need to kill him; he was satisfied with merely leaving Harmonica with a lifetime of trauma.

RE: the main question of this thread: Maybe the scene would work a bit better if there were only those 2 soldiers in the pub, rather than all those policemen as well. However, (while it is a bit difficult to say, as some here are saying, that he killed all the policemen), perhaps we can say that since Sean already had the rifle drawn and cocked, none of the policemen would dare reach for their guns, lest he shoot them dead as well. So maybe he was able to leave safely by pointing his rifle at them as he left (and perhaps he confiscated their guns before he left, etc.). This possibility, that he killed two soldiers in the presence of so many policemen and other witnesses, would nicely explain why he there was a price on his head which forced him to flee to Mexico  :)


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: drinkanddestroy on March 14, 2011, 05:30:48 PM

BTW, did any1 notice the way the second officer falls to the ground? He puts his hands out to protect the first fallen actor. I doubt very much when your shot dead you care how or where you fall. That alone should have warranted a reshoot IMHO.

I noticed that, but it didn't bother me. Assuming the second officer didn't die the moment the bullet hit him, but was conscious as he was falling down, it is natural that when someone is falling, he puts his hand down to brace his fall. He was protecting himself, not the first dead officer.


Title: Re: How does Sean/John escape the pub?
Post by: Groggy on March 18, 2011, 03:15:34 PM
RE: the main question of this thread: Maybe the scene would work a bit better if there were only those 2 soldiers in the pub, rather than all those policemen as well. However, (while it is a bit difficult to say, as some here are saying, that he killed all the policemen), perhaps we can say that since Sean already had the rifle drawn and cocked, none of the policemen would dare reach for their guns, lest he shoot them dead as well. So maybe he was able to leave safely by pointing his rifle at them as he left (and perhaps he confiscated their guns before he left, etc.). This possibility, that he killed two soldiers in the presence of so many policemen and other witnesses, would nicely explain why he there was a price on his head which forced him to flee to Mexico  :)

Maybe the cops weren't armed. I don't know if the Irish constabulatory went around packing heat but British police didn't carry firearms until relatively recently.