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Once Upon A Time In The West / hat question?

« on: July 26, 2007, 01:09:49 AM »

When I saw OUATIW again recently I noticed maybe irelevant fact. In the scene where Frank and Morton had their coversation, and in the Frank/Jill "love scene" Frank didn't have his hat on, of course .Cheyenne is also without his hat in the famous shaving scene at McBain's farm.
But Harmonica? Did he ever took of his hat in this movie? If he did, I somehow missed it. I know that he didn't have his hat in the hanging scene, but it is different thing, he was young, and it was before his tragedy occured. Also in the scene that was cut out from the movie when sheriff's men are beating Harmonica.  Even inside the house he is wearing his hat. Like it was his part of the body or something.

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Once Upon A Time In The West / Leone/Kubrick

« on: July 20, 2007, 03:45:59 AM »

In 1968 we had two maior movies Space Odissey 2001 and OUTIW.
Famous scene in SO 2001;
1.Ape man's first learning to use bone as a tool. And the first wheapon (the bone) match-cuts to the latest wheapon (orbiting nuclear bomb platforms). Perhaps the most famous cut of all time. It explains how people developed more and more deadly wheapons as they civilisation grew. Kubrick managed to spend only frame or two of his movie and he covered two crucial moments separated by milions of years.
2.Sergio managed to pull something similar; his famous shot in the McBain massacre scene. Frank draw his gun very slowly, cock it and as he fires, we have a cut on the train arriving to Flagstone station, and sound of the gun is mixed with the sound of the locomotive.
What do you guys think what was Sergio's intention with this shot. He was obviously trying to tell us something, just like Kubrick did. But what?
Clearly we have to establish some kind of conection between the gun and the railroad. But what kind of connection?
Train as a simbol of the future wheapon? Maybe, but train in OUATIW is not only described as a negative thing(well yes but only in the Morton/Frank storyline) it has positive conotation also (civilisation of the West, Jill's storyline).I would like to hear your opinions.

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General Discussion / Question for all fans...

« on: July 05, 2007, 05:31:15 AM »

.....especially from German fans like Mike Siegel (sorry if I am wrong).  I heard one interesting thing:
Is it true that in the German version of OUTIW in the hanging scene, instead "keep your lovin' brother happy" Frank says in German "Spiel mir das lied von tot" in translation "play me a song of death", and then he sticks harmonica in the mouth of Harmonica's brother?
Can enyone confirm this? Thanks.

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For a Few Dollars More / Poster scene: or Leone's greatness

« on: June 29, 2007, 02:23:37 AM »

I saw this movie once again, well not whole just best parts, so about 2/3 of the movie... , and I decided to watch the scene with a Indio's portret.
First came Manco, camera took his POV so we can see Indio's diabolical face all over the screen. And then we have Sergio's masterful eye for a little details. Camera slowly moves up, only to end up focusing to 10.000 REWARD.
Then camera is switched to another scene, and we are able to see col. Mortimer's reaction. Again, we have camera taking over col. Mortimer's point of view, as he looks at Indio's face, just like Manco. But this time, collonel's eyes (and camera too) are moving down, to the end of the poster, and camera is now focused on this words: WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE.
What does this all mean to us. We see now that they inspect the same poster, but for a very different reasons.
Well this is the first hint in the movie that provides us with informations that Manco is here primarily for the money, and col. Mortimer is here because something else. His eyes are not fixed on the 10.000 REWARD, but on the fact that Indio escaped from prison, and now he must find him, DEAD OR ALIVE.
But this hint is so subtle, so you can easily overlook it. And the fact that this scene has no dialog whatsoever, (show, don't tell)-Sergio is the master for thiese sort of things, so we can easily miss something important. And important it is, especially in  combination with Manco/Mortimer conversation just after their "shooting hat" game, and the second hidden clue.
Manco said something like this: "When I get my hands on Indio's MONEY I will buy ranch and maybe settle down".
Mortimer then replies: "Not if I get my hand on Indio first. I cannot quote Mortimer's words exactly but it is obvious that there is no word MONEY attached with the name Indio. That means Mortimer wants Indio, and money is not important.

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The Good, The Bad and The Ugly / The showdown dilemma

« on: June 14, 2007, 01:11:51 PM »

I watched this movie again and again, but only recently I realised something. I always thought that "final trio" duel is marvelous, but I always felt that I am missing something important for the plot development. And it strikes me:
We have this great scene: After "Ecstasy of gold" Tuco is at the cemetery, and he is digging (Arch Stanton grave). Then Blondie came and we have their conversation.
The most important moment; Angel Eye arrived at the cemetery, and he has the gun. He is in a better position then Blondie, not to mention poor Tuco.
My question is this; Angel Eye- Why didn't he killed Tuco? Let us look at the facts; Angel Eye tortured Tuco in military prison. Tuco tells him everything. Everything that has to do with his part of the secret. And he told AE that other part of the secret (name of the grave) wich only Blondie knew.
So when AE arrived at that cemetery he knew this; 1.Blondie knows his part of the secret, name. After Blondies reply "You want see the cent of this money", he can't kill Blondie because he need him in order to get the name and gold with it.
2.Angel Eye knows this: Tuco told him everything he knew, and he knew the name and the place of that cemetery. But now, AE knows it too.
So AE doesn't need Tuco anymore. But he still left him alive. Tuco doesn't have any kind of "shield", he didn't have any "hidden cards" at this point. WHY DID ANGEL EYE LEFT TUCO ALIVE? He doesn't need to. He has sent him into prison camp before, that means that he find out everything he wanted from Tuco. And now at the cemetery, AE knows everything that Tuco knew, perhaps even more, and he left him alive.
I mean Tuco is probably least dangerous oponent in this duel (only in this!), but this is inconsistent with AE's character. He doesn't need Tuco, in fact Tuco will be one of the rivals in his pursuit for gold, along with Blondie. But he needs Blondie. Next logical thing would be: arriving at the cemetery, waiting for the conversation, after "You wan't see the cent.... sentence he would realize that he need Blondie, and the fact that he doesn't need Tuco any more. So logicaly, he had to kill him.
Instead, he left Tuco to participate in this duel, and as the result he couldn't concentrate on just one oponent. He had to watch out for Tuco too. That is why he died. I cannot believe that AE didn't follow his ruthless nature to his very end.
I would like to hear your opinions

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Once Upon A Time In The West / Harmonica's identity:

« on: June 07, 2007, 03:48:46 AM »

I have a question for USA members;
While I was surfing on wikipedia, I found out that there is a series of comic books whith character named Harmonica.
All I was able to find is that it has been published by Malibu Comics Ultraverse series The Solution.
"Little was known about the man known as Harmonica, except that he was enacting a vendetta (this is familiar!!!) against the Darkur, a race of shape changing warriors from the Goodwheel. Whatever the reason, he consistently eradicated any Darkurian he encountered"
"After the Black September event wich changed the Ultraverse's reality, Harmonica's wereabouts were unknown."
Does anyone knows is there any similarities between Sergio's Man with Harmonica and this comics. Does he poses "the instrument"?. Obviously he seek some kind of revenge, so I figured that they are somehow connected, or this comic is perhaps heavily influenced by OUTIW.
I tried to find more informations about this comic, but, obviously I failed. Perhaps someone knows something more about this enigma (well at least it is enigma for me). If someone has some pictures of Harmonica from that comic even better

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Once Upon A Time In The West / Hommage to OUATIW?

« on: April 24, 2007, 02:20:37 AM »

Couple a days ago I saw one of the "modern westerns"  The Quick and the Dead" with Leonardo di Caprio, Gene Hackman and Sharon Stone. There are more than few simillarities between this two movies.
Here is example:
1.In both of thiese westerns revenge is a main theme of the movie
2. Main characters Harmonica, and The Lady as we see, they have only nicknames, not real names.
3. Both main characters are coming to town, there are strangers with hidden agenda. They keep they identities for themselves.
4. The Lady and Harmoinica are underastimated at first, but pretty soon everybody knows how quick they draw their guns.
5.Main villain in both movies Frank in OUATIW and JOhn in TQATD are very fast with a gun (maybe the fastest until they met main hero). Both were liders of their gangs in their previous life, and both were brutal killers with reinessance aproach to death.
6.Most important: how they killed their victims. Frank hanged Harmonica's brother, and H. has to carry him on his shoulders.
John hanged Lady's father, sheriff, while he was on the horse, and he offers the gun to a little girl. If she can shoot the rope her father will stay alive. The point is John knows that little girl doesn't stand a chance. Gun is heavy in her hand. Of course she missed the rope and she killed her father. Both Frank and John are offering the false hope to a young victims, because they like to watch their misery. Both characters are monsters. John even murdered his own son, Frank kills little boy, and girl. They are ruthless.
7.In both movies others members of the gang are present in a scene during hanging, and they enyoying the whole thing.
8.Frank doesn't know Harmonica's true identity, until the very end. John doesn't know Ladie's true identity either. They are asking the same question: who are you? Frank at the point of dying, and John during dinner at his place.
9.Revelation: Revealing main characters true identities true some kind of specific detail; Harmonica is defined by instrument harmonica, and Lady's identity is revealed by her father's sheriff shield.
10. Both scenes are of course in flashback. Frank and John are shaken by this discovery. Frank saw harmonica and he knows who the man with harmonica really is. John saw sheriff's shield and he knows who The Lady is.
11.Finally showdown: scenes are very simillar like the one from Leone's movies, camera closeups on eyes etc.

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Once Upon A Time In The West / Morton's music theme

« on: March 19, 2007, 01:27:03 AM »

I went on Wikipedia and in the section music of an article Once Upon a time in the West i saw quote:"The film features the leitmotifs wich relate to each of the main characters (each with their own unique theme music) as well as to the spirit of the American West. There is only one character who doesn't have a leitmotif: Frank takes on Morton's leitmotif by killing him." This last sentence I don't understand. I know that Frank has his music "Like a judgment", and Harmonica's music leitmotif is "Man with Harmonica". As I recall, Morton does have his music (I believe in a scene when Morton looks at the picture with a ocean motif, and in a scene when he slowly dying near mug pool). So how come Morton doesn't have his leitmotif, and still Frank gets it from him by killing Morton. That is cotradictory. Beside the fact that Frank didn't kill Morton( and there is no solid evidence that Morton is even shot), wich scene in your opinion, shows Frank taking over Morton's theme? I didn't find that scene. I know that at the end of the movie Frank's motif is mixed with Harmonica's, but Mortons? Is it possible that Wikipedia made a mistake?I would like to hear your answer.

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A Fistful of Dollars / Final showdown in FOD

« on: February 23, 2007, 02:13:41 AM »

Maybe you already had discussion about this subject, but I  have one question. Joe first shot the rope, then Ramon's rifle, and finally four Ramon's gunmen. Totall: six bullets. Why does Joe aim at Ramon's rifle when it's empty. We all know from the "Unforgiven" that gunmen in duel against three or four people shoud kill the fastest one first. I know in this showdown, Ramon is the fastest, but his rifle is empty. So Joe could have save him for later. Those four had loaded guns and they were more dangerous for Joe. Why would Joe spend this precious moment in a duel on a empty rifle, when four other guys with a loaded wheapons waiting to kill him? Do you think that Joe's triage in this battle is wrong? 

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Once Upon A Time In The West / "Something to do with death"

« on: February 22, 2007, 03:42:10 AM »

I' ve read your previous threads about Harmonica's unearthly presence( Tuco and Cigar Joe, thanks for directions). Harmonica as the Angel of Death. Wow. I thought that it is impossible even to concider Harmonica as some kind of supernatural character. Then I 've decided to explore and find some evidences to support that thesis. So I saw movie once more, searching for something unusual in Harmonica's character, following only Harmonica's moves and actions.
       
A) Analisis of the space; Harmonica often stands outside, perifferaly, always steps aside as if checking the situation in front of him, and monitors other characters reactions.
 
1) scene; In the saloon: Harmonica sits in the dark corner and waits for Cheyenee to introduce himself. He is watching and has it under control, but does not participate in Cheyenee's game. He leaves it to Cheyenee to lead the game for now.

2) scene;the scene on the ranch: Harmonica waits in the barn for Cheyenee and his people to leave. He is also watching Frank's gunmen move. He acts only when he wants to ruin Frank's plans, to prevent his killing of Jill and taking over the estate.

3) scene; trough the opening in the roof of the train Harmonica, ( once again from the background) listens to the conversation between Frank and Morton, and again, he is in a passive position.
 
4) scene;  Harmonica (from the background, again) from upstairs in the saloon is watching the shameful auction of the ranch, and development of the events from a broader perspective-a bird perspective. He acts in the right moment to prevent Frank get hold of the ranch.

5) scene; Harmonica goes upstairs in the saloon, and watches from there (as from the background) the duel between Frank and his former gunmen, paid by Morton to kill him.

6) scene; Harmonica sits on the fence and has excellent view on who is approaching (also he is out of the house where main characters are).  
          
All of the above speaks in favor of the fact that Harmonica is somewhat unreal character. Something like he is present there but also not  really part of that world. He is always in a way separated from the main focus of the scene, but only physically. In fact, he is always ahead of his oponents and anticipates their moves. He always acts timely, but only when Frank's plans need to be thwarted. As Freilling observed, he just slides into the frame, as if present at all times, and only waits for his moment to act. From this facts we see that Harmonica is the character of his own, viewed from the spacial aspect, but also from his behavior.

 B) Emotional aspect; He is never angry, he never loses control, and he is never sad in the true meaning of the word. The only thing that can bee seen in his eyes is a sort of melancholy, silent sorrow. all other characters cry, weep, lose their temper, laugh, rage but Harmonica is constant. Even when he smiles, it is a sad smile, accompanied with the look to the past. As if forever returning into that moment when his brother was hanged. That's where his life stopped, his thoughts, his senses. Body continued to live accompanied only with the emotion of hate and desire to revenge.
Resume; Harmonica is literary physically out from the large number of scenes with a main characters, but he knows exactly what is happening out there. He chooses higher positions in order to have upper hand in every possible moment. Like he has some strange control over the events. He moves slowly, but that only makes him more omnipotent. Always at the right place at the right time. You can hurt him but you can't kill him. I wan't say he is a ghost, I prefer someone of flesh and blood, but immortal. More like Brandon Lee's Eric from "The Crow". He can't bee killed until he fulfill his revenge. Finally Cheyenne's words: Something to do with Death. Cheyenne is a bandit, experienced man from the border. He killed a lot of people in his life, that's for sure. Main reason was money I presume. But he instinctively feels that Harmonica is on the much higher level than him. Death travels with him. He is driven dy his personal reasons, and that is respectful.

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General Discussion / Clint Eastwood recieved another reward!

« on: February 21, 2007, 05:53:47 AM »

 Clint Eastwood recieved the highest French honours from a French president Yacques Chirac, The Legion d' Honneur . He become a night in France's elite Legion of Honor. (See at www.fuckfrance.com).

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Other Films / Homosexual overtones

« on: February 21, 2007, 03:58:06 AM »

I've watched last year Oscars and Jon Stewart said joke about Brokeback Mountain. Something like; there were no Westerns with man to man love. And then they showed inserts from Shane, from Big Country " Gregory Peck to Charlton Heston; this room is not big enough for what I'm gonna do to you. I was thinking, they could easily put this scene from OUATITW; Frank; "Future doesn't matter to us now. Not a money not the land, not the woman. I came to see you. And CUT after thiese words. I think out of context, this is preety funny love sentence. What do you think?

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Once Upon A Time In The West / puzzling situation

« on: February 20, 2007, 01:01:19 AM »

I read some earlier posts and I found one that belongs Tuco the Ugly. It's on Not even at the point of dying thread I think. And one thing puzzles me. Tuco has mention three names Dave Jenkins, Calder Benson Chuck Youngblood. Quote: "I mean everybody knows that Frank is a murderer, so what?Rumour could easily spread trough the West; Frank killed Dave Jenkins, Calder Benson, Chuck Yougblood. Frank thought nobody seen him, he believed he didn't left any witneses behind". That was a surprise for me. I always thought that these were names of the gunmans who helped Frank at the hanging ( you know guy with a apple, one with a rifle at his back and one with no teeth). Then Harmonica chased them and killed them in the large period of time. I guess Harmonica considered them guilty  for a death of his brother, and he killed them first, and final act of revenge keept for Frank. That woul explain that Frank remembers their names and the fact that they are dead. I mean he would know the name of his own gunmans wouldn't he? So he is not afraid that he left a witneses but he is afraid of someone who  tell's that names. That means that man who knows thiese names probably knows many secrets. Frank knows that thiese names were familiar to a very few people. I mean they left no witnesses. 1.)I would like to hear your opinions about this subject. I mean, thiese names, are they belong to a Frank's gunmans or people that were killed by Frank. I remind you Frank is a brutal killer and he doesn't have guilty counciouns. He doesn't remember who he killed and why, I guess he killed to many.

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Once Upon A Time In The West / Dramatic moment in OUATIW

« on: February 16, 2007, 05:14:00 AM »

Have you noticed that beautiful irony in a saloon scene at the moment when Frank offers 50001 dollars to buy out Jill's ranch? Harmonica is leaned on saloon doors with his eyes fixed on something very far, on a picture of a man wich identity is unknown to us when we saw movie for the first time. The picture is out of focus. You have to watch this movie at least two times to be able to catch this dramatic irony. In that moment Harmonica reaches in the deepest corners of his memories, in the darkest places of his subconscious, but in that very moment Frank said the words; "I wouldn't think too much about it if I was you". This scene always makes shivers down my spine. Frank misinterpreted Harmonica's silence. He thought that Harmonica consideres money. Frank casual behavior and thiese words were spoken to a man who thinks only at that moment when his brother was killed. Even more, words came from a man who is responsibile for his brother murder. Incredibly cruel words, greatest insult. The man who killed Harmonica's brother is a very same man who gives "friendly advice" not to think much. Irony is that Harmonica's only purpose in this world is to avenge his brother death. Polarity between Harmonica's emotional trauma that he constantly reliving, and cruel and casual aproach that Frank has been showing in this short scene is striking.

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Once Upon A Time In The West / Frank and Harmonica

« on: February 15, 2007, 12:41:08 AM »

I noticed that Frank goes down because he become reckless. He is settling things from the distance, he uses other people to finish his dirty work. He underestemated Harmonica, probably because Frank savagely murdered alot of people (probably every family wich farm stood in a way of Morton's railroad) and Harmonica's brother is just another obstacle. 1. My question is this; does, from your opinion Frank belongs to 'older' people? I'll explain. By old people I think characters in Leone movies who are careless  (like collonel Mortimer when he fall in Indio's trap, even Monco said to him that he is caught in his pants down in final duel). In TGTBU Angel Eye fell on Blondie's trap and participates in unfair duell.) Frank is getting old (he let's other people take care of things while he play businessman). All of them are older people and they finished their lives badly. What do you think?