Sergio Leone Web Board
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 22, 2017, 04:15:13 AM
Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
News:


  Show Posts
Pages: [1]
1  Films of Sergio Leone / Once Upon A Time In America / How could Max kill (or leave them killed) his childood friends on: November 17, 2006, 11:30:12 AM
Nobody has really something to say about what I asked 6 months ago (see after) :
How could Max kill (or leave them killed) his childood friends Patsy and Cockeye ??

Why Max is so machiavelic with his friend Noodles?
He could have done otherwise...
 
for me it's not possible and can only be explained
by the fact that Max didn't do that
This is  Noodles who effectively dreams (see other topics) that his best friend is still alived 30 years after....






one question that rests for me in this film is :
"why such perversity from Max?"

We know what he is and what he wants to become ;
he wants to reach the greatest materialistic succes.

we could understand that he cannot reach that with Noodles (1) and Patsy and Cockeye (2)
(1) : Noodles has clearly marked his opposition to deal with politicians and mafia. Max knows that he cannot "works" with him.
(2) for Patsy and Cockeye, let's say that Max thinks that they are not able to be great gangster... or that there's only one place in the plans of mafia for example.

well why not... but why imagine such a machiavelic plan ??
I was quite dispappointed in the final "duel" between Bailey and Noodles that never, Patsy and Cockeye were evoked.
They disappear that's all, finally they were only gigs of the gang.
The movie insists about the friendship/opposition betwen Max and Noodles. But at the end, Patsy and Cockeye didn't exist anymore in thoughts of anyone.

Why Max killed (or made killed) fifteen years ago friends, patsy and cockeye???
They lived all three together waiting noodles come out of prison...
the prohibition is dead and Max thoughts of new plans...
but it was certainly possible to continue with patsy and cockeye.
Certainly Noodles has a personality which can't annoy Max in his plan. But Patsy and cockeye cannot really embarassed the great Max in his will of ascencion.
So why kill them?Huh

and Noodles... okay Max must find a defnitive solution with him. he cannot kill him...
but he could have found another solution instead of this machiavelic plan...
Noodles cannot stay with him because of his ambitions but why "killed" his life through this very pervert plan???

i said in another post that his success in life can only be approved by his old friend, the guy who knew him when he was nothing...
the final meeting was certainly waited by Max :
He wants Noodles see what he had become.
he wants Noodles say that he had all the success possible in life :
- the money (he is rich : big house, big fest...
- the status in society (he the senator is a very important person...)
and...
- the love (in his materialistic way : the most beatiful woman in Noodles Mind)

it's as Max has defined the success in the eye of noodles.
Noodles desire of money, status and love is true but pure...
it's a child desire... a basic desire... he is absolutely not ready of all the concessions of adult wolrd and society to reach that.
he wants it easily, basically... as a child.

the last confrontation as in other's leone films design a winner only because the loser is dead ("Max in the trash"). But as usually the winner is a looser in certain way....

well let's come back to the question :  what i said is that Max is surprisingly perverse in his relation with Noodles and with his friends patsy and cockeye.
he could have live his own life and reach his own success without killing or lying them...

either he is really crazy or as it was said, it's only a fantasmagoric dream of a Noodles who tries not feeling him guilty of the murder of his friends and made Max responsible of all the situation...




excuse me for my "not always fluent english"


2  Films of Sergio Leone / Once Upon A Time In America / Re:What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ? on: September 26, 2005, 04:00:23 AM
Remember: Before knocking Noodles out,  Max tried to convince him TO STAY AT THE SPEAKEASY and only after Noodles refused answering" Eveywhere you go, I go" he  decided to beat him.
Clearly Max had made the sacrifice of Cockeye and Patsy, but not of Noodles.
Its a great proof of love !  Undecided

i stil couldn't understand how Max could have sacrificed Pasty and Cockeye, childhood friends and associates during ten years in their gangsters lifes.
this characters were also always sympathic in the film (during thier childhood and after that during the "parodies" of gangsters film),
it's hard for a basic spectator to see them killed and totally forgotten after that...
well, they were gangsters, violent etc... but why Max killed them?
for me it's not understandable!

Perhaps Leone Wanted to show that old (gangster ) cinema is dead through the death of these characters of gangsters???
Leone wanted to show that commercial cinema killed the great cinema ??

after that :
why Max later have paid a great "mausolee" (it's a fench terme means a great tomb).
How could kill his friends and after that, made for  them these rich great temple???
a temple of the old cinema for Leone Huh

this film deals with friendship...
between Max and Noodles..
why Patsy and Cockeye in the end didn't signified nothnig for Max and Noodles???
to show that a true and strong relation can only happen between two people Huh Noodles and "his mother" or "uncle" Max


3  General Information / General Discussion / the best book upon Leone ?? on: September 15, 2005, 07:40:19 AM
certainly the question has been already asked, so
excuse for not having read all this forum.

my question is simple (and complicated)
what is the best book about Sergio Leone and his films (with analysis) if possible) ??

and harder : a book in  french if possible
4  Films of Sergio Leone / Once Upon A Time In America / Why Max was so machiavelic ??? on: September 15, 2005, 07:28:10 AM
one question that rests for me in this film is :
"why such perversity from Max?"

We know what he is and what he wants to become ;
he wants to reach the greatest materialistic succes.

we could understand that he cannot reach that with Noodles (1) and Patsy and Cockeye (2)
(1) : Noodles has clearly marked his opposition to deal with politicians and mafia. Max knows that he cannot "works" with him.
(2) for Patsy and Cockeye, let's say that Max thinks that they are not able to be great gangster... or that there's only one place in the plans of mafia for example.

well why not... but why imagine such a machiavelic plan ??
I was quite dispappointed in the final "duel" between Bailey and Noodles that never, Patsy and Cockeye were evoked.
They disappear that's all, finally they were only gigs of the gang.
The movie insists about the friendship/opposition betwen Max and Noodles. But at the end, Patsy and Cockeye didn't exist anymore in thoughts of anyone.

Why Max killed (or made killed) fifteen years ago friends, patsy and cockeye???
They lived all three together waiting noodles come out of prison...
the prohibition is dead and Max thoughts of new plans...
but it was certainly possible to continue with patsy and cockeye.
Certainly Noodles has a personality which can't annoy Max n his plan. But Patsy and cockeye cannot really embarassed the great Max in his will of ascencion.
So why kill them?Huh

and Noodles... okay Max must find a defnitive solution with him. he cannot kill him...
but he could have found another solution instead of this machiavelic plan...
Noodles cannot rest with him because of his ambitions but why "killed" his life through this very pervert plan???

i said in another post that his success in life can only be approved by his old friend, the guy who knew him when he was nothing...
the final meeting was certainly waited by Max :
He wants Noodles see what he had become.
he wants Noodles say that he had all the success possible in life :
- the money (he is rich : big house, big fest...
- the status in society (he the senator is a very important person...)
and...
- the love (in his materialistic way : the most beatiful woman in Noodles Mind)

it's as Max has defined the success in the eye of noodles.
Noodles desire of money, status and love is true but pure...
it's a child desire... a basic desire... he is absolutely not ready of all the concessions of adult wolrd and society to reach that.
he wants it easily, basically... as a child.

the last confrontation as in other's leone films design a winner only because the loser is dead ("Max in the trash"). But as usually the winner is a looser in certain way....

well let's come back to the question :  what i said is that Max is surprisingly perverse in his relation with Noodles and with his friends patsy and cockeye.
he could have live his own life and reach his own success without killing or lying them...

either he is really crazy or as it was said, it's only a fantasmagoric dream of a Noodles who tries not feeling him guilty of the murder of his friends and made Max responsible of all the situation...




excuse me for my "not always fluent english"

5  Films of Sergio Leone / Once Upon A Time In America / Re: I know why it's all just a dream on: September 15, 2005, 06:40:48 AM
personnaly, i think it's not a dream
it's also not the true reality.
it's the reality through the eyes of noodles.
noddles submerged by emotions.
when yiu are rellay affected, shoched by feelings you don't see the things as they really are.
a person you love will always be beautiful : this person cannot become old.
it happens sometimes that you fell in your thoughts...
you are walking or you are driving and suddendly you are going elsewhere and you are living (or re-living) another scene in your minds.
it's the same for Noodles... it's the explanation of the end when old he sees the cars of the 1930s. he wants to rest here (in 1930s) so he "lives" that.
6  Films of Sergio Leone / Once Upon A Time In America / Re: What the reason why Woods knocked out De Niro ? on: September 15, 2005, 05:27:40 AM
don't forget one of the main themes of the film : the passage of childhood to adult.
Max and Noodles are friends.
Noodles loves the satisfactions and the "games" of childhood time : like "play the gangsters"...
Max wants to succeed in his adult life.

in 1933, Max has reached a position but he wants to be recognized as someone respected.
after the prison, has Noodles became an adult??
Noodles quickly understand that the life of his friends in 1933 is not so "exciting" as before.
he wants a more crazy life (the car in the sea), he
wants to feel the feelings of his childhood.
but he understant that now it's too serious : he doesn t want to work with politicians.
when he was child he wants to appear like gangsters (remember the 5 boys with their jacket and suit) but it was a game and the death of dominic and the murder of bugsy sent Noodles on the other side : the world of adults.

Max has to separe himself from Noodles because he understant that he was not able to follow him in his dreams of great and successful life.
Success for Max is material
Success for Noodles is immetarial (feelings)

Perhaps, Max does not want to kill Noodles (although he can "killed" Patsy and Cockeye) because Noodles impresses him because he is not attach to material things.
he envies him not to be so materialist.
Max avoids to be "crazy"
Noodles wants to be crazy...
Max knows that in order to succes, "crazyness" has to disappear in his life


at last,
Max knows that he has to die.
but he wants to be sure that he succeeds in his life.
and he can now that through a "duel" with Noodles.
Noodles is his old friend, the one who count the most for him.
only him can killed him Max says.
In fact the mind of Noodles is very important to Max and he is waiting for Noodles.
he wants that noodles recognize that he is great.
he wants noodles to kill him :because it significates that noodles was disappointed and really envies his life, and so that Noodles points that Max's life was great.
Perhaps Max is waiting for "you are crazy", but he could reply "look, look, look..."

But noodles has the answer who "kill" and sends Max (his personage) in garbage (in bin).
He imitates the language of Max (of adults) with lot of reveration... with very impersonnal words.
Max is "dead" since 1933. The Max of his childhood.
Noodles will never recognize that Max was successfull.
although he recognizes that his adult life was not a succes he prefers to "come back" in his happy moments (1920s and 1933) in the opium room.


ps : i'm french and i hope my english is understable

Pages: [1]



Visit FISTFUL-OF-LEONE.COM

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.029 seconds with 19 queries.