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16  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Jean-Pierre Melville on: July 17, 2017, 08:28:01 AM
I don't know what you mean by "throwing offenses." I was parroting your own line from just a few posts ago. When you wrote "but I forgive you, as you have no sense of humor" were you trying to insult me? I did not take it so. I just saw that as a lame attempt at humor, and responded with some lame humor of my own. Of course my use of the term idiot was not meant to be offensive; I was merely stating what I see to be a fact. Granted, I am not a trained professional, and my finding is that of a layman's only, but I came by it honestly and would be willing to sign an affidavit to that effect. If pressed for evidence I would point to the thread called L'il Duce's Dog's Breakfast and the list of films compiled therein. No one reading through that list of mediocre selections and their assessments could have any doubt about the author's mental acuity. (What about the rare case where a "worthy" film was selected? These come under the heading Even a Stopped Clock is Correct Twice a Day.)

 Grin  Grin You're trying to overcome yourself in bs. Hard feat, I'll grant that. But you're in a corner and trying to extricate yourself and so you're going into hysterics. Anyway, thanx for being such an assiduous reader of my thread. Wish I could reciprocate.


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Why the "s"? You have as far as I can determine only one objection: this film does not rise to the veracity of real life. This is hardly the kind of thing worth debating. And anyway, you only trot this truism out when it suits you. There are plenty of films that do not adequately encompass the complexity of all that is around us. For every film you denigrate for not being sufficiently realistic there is one you extol by ignoring its lack of verisimilitude. "Plot convenience" is a convention of narrative, filmed or otherwise. When the outcome of events is not unduly influenced by such a thing, most rational viewers overlook it.

No, you're making as usual lots of confusion. To support your thesis, of course. In a Bunuel's movie (I mean, something like Le charme discret or Le phantome ) you do not look for verisimilitude. In a movie like  AOS, based on real characters and real facts I expect verisimilitude all around. Why the "s"? Because, as I wrote, you have to ingest 1)  One denouncing himself to Gestapo 2) exposing himself to torture like it were a joke, not knowing if he'll end up denouncing his comrades 3) Not knowing if his scheme will succeed

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I did, but you have ignored my remarks.
You think you did. That's different.

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Feature films are, by definition, hypothetical.
  Uh? Bazin wouldn't agree

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Troll titoli, engaging with you is always a waste of time. Goodbye.
Will you keep on reading my thread?

[/quote]
17  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Jean-Pierre Melville on: July 16, 2017, 04:46:31 PM
You don't understand my point at all (but I forgive you because you're an idiot.) Efficacy for others is completely beside the point. The tragic figure acts for his own benefit. He/she may hope others benefit from his/her action, but that is a secondary matter. He/she seeks transcendence, something he/she cannot help but do.

You can argue that Cassel is not a tragic figure, but I think that is an interpretive option worth leaving open. But I like the film more than you.

Your starting throwing offenses is your usual childish way to try to reinforce your weak assumptions. In fact you don't answer my objections. Your point that "the tragic figure acts for his own benefit" is debatable (you should specify what "benefit" means) but doesn't include the decisive adverb "foolishly" as it is case for Cassel, as his action, far from heroic, might end up in ridicule.
18  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Some Like It Violent (1968) an Exploitation "Roughie" Masterpiece on: July 16, 2017, 11:30:06 AM
Roughie, thanks, fixed

I would have left Rougie: another category to add to your collection.
19  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Jean-Pierre Melville on: July 16, 2017, 11:28:39 AM
No. It was an example chosen to illustrate the futility of self sacrifice. Our literature is replete with other cases. Against edit, Antigone buries her brother and is punished for it. Her effort does her brother no good, but she felt compelled to do what she thought was right. Neither Oedipus or Antigone act to affect others, only to ennoble themselves. But they cannot do otherwise.

The interesting thing in Melville's film is that Cassel can't know he will land in the same cell as his buddy, but against the odds he does. This should signal that all will be well, cinematically speaking. But of course the effort--like all the efforts in the movie--ends only in tears. Melville is relentless in his approach and yet his underlining never becomes tiresome.
Of course, I was joking about Cassel friggin' his own mum (but I forgive you, as you have no sense of humor). The point is that the examples from greek tragedy have nothing to do with the case in question, as there's the hitch in AOS that Cassel's action would prove nothing if he'd end up in another cell. We'd  then be wondering why he's such an idiot. The fact that no reason is given about his certainty he will end up in the same cell proves my assumption.
20  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Jean-Pierre Melville on: July 16, 2017, 02:51:34 AM
Maybe the Resistance knew a little about the workings of the Gestapo prison. Maybe they knew that all high-value prisoners with knowledge of the Underground, to br tortured, are placed in the same area. Maybe he didn't even know it would be the same cell. Whatever, it's a matter of opinion. To me this is well within the cinematoc suspension of disbelief. Unlike, say, Angel Eyes showing up out of nowhere in the Northern prison camp, in the international cut of GBU that's missing the Fort Scene  Wink

Oh, sure, you can suspend disbelief. But that AE may have become a concentration camp boss it rhymes with his being a sob: it would have been different if he had tried his best to be put there as an inmate. We do not know how he got there but we also don't know that it would have been impossible and it is surely a role which allowed him to keep on doing what he did as a civilian.   In AOS we must believe that a man in his senses denounces himself to be tortured by Gestapo (and that's already hard to ingest: I never knew of anybody who did it), that he is absolutely certain he will resist torture and not make names (and only an imbecile can presume that) on the absolutely uncertain assumption he might be put in the same cell of his friend.  I think it is stretching verisimilitude a bit too much. And it would have been funny if he had been put in another cell: what then?
21  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Jean-Pierre Melville on: July 15, 2017, 09:42:10 PM
The sacrificial intention is on par with the deed. Transcendentally speaking.

But only because he ends up in the same cell.
22  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Jean-Pierre Melville on: July 15, 2017, 09:41:03 PM
The same could be said for Oedipus when he puts his eyes out. You either have an instinctual understanding of tragedy or you don't.

So by giving himself up to Gestapo Cassel was punishing himself for frigging his own mother?
23  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Jean-Pierre Melville on: July 15, 2017, 09:29:45 PM
He couldn't be 100% sure, of course. But he was willing to give himself up on the chance. You can consider that heroic or moronic.


Can't see any room for option. It is moronic, that's that.
24  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Jean-Pierre Melville on: July 15, 2017, 04:31:58 PM
Or, if not pointless, than an opportunity for transcendence that only a few characters could experience (e.g. the guy who denounces himself so he'll be arrested so that he can get into prison with his colleague).

Uhm. But how Cassel can be sure he will be put in the same cell as the airman? I think that affair is moronic. Trascendentally so.
25  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Some Like It Violent (1968) an Exploitation "Roughie" Masterpiece on: July 15, 2017, 09:20:17 AM
"Rougie"? Another shade of noir?
26  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Give 'em Hell Malone (2009) Hyper Hammer on: July 13, 2017, 09:45:35 PM

I'm talking about the seedy side of the city the visuals, not the characters.

Yeah, that's what Scorsese does. Or even, on a lower level, those who make the criminal series over here.
27  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Give 'em Hell Malone (2009) Hyper Hammer on: July 13, 2017, 04:04:26 PM
Just saying that doesn't mean squat, WTF are you talking about, explain, you think it's easier to recreate the 1940s and 50s now? That don't make any sense at all.



Who talked about "recreate"? I'm talking about showing the seedy side of a city, with its down and out characters who just are not the clowns you find in a Batman movie, like the fireman or the chinese girl, but  characters and locales who maintain a connection with reality.   
28  Other/Miscellaneous / Off-Topic Discussion / Re: Give 'em Hell Malone (2009) Hyper Hammer on: July 13, 2017, 08:12:39 AM
The trouble is it's going be be harder and harder to create it the father in time you get away from it. It's just like Westerns, the farther you get away from that time period the harder it is to make it feel right, look right, sound right.

Couldn't disagree more.
29  General Information / General Discussion / Re: Western Books on: July 12, 2017, 11:00:15 AM
in Montana is a euphemism for bull shittin'.

I don't think that goes only for Montana.
30  General Information / General Discussion / Re: Western Books on: July 12, 2017, 07:50:28 AM


Greatest Cowboy Stories Ever Told: Enduring Tales Of The Western Frontier

A combination of fiction and autobiography of uneven quality and which has the added minus of being made up of excerpts from whole books. I likes the Pecos Bill stories and the excerpt from Frank Harris' reminiscenses on which the Daves movie Cowboy was based. But then I'll have to buy the whole book. 6/10
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