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October 21, 2018, 05:28:29 AM
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 31 
 : October 19, 2018, 04:47:24 AM 
Leonardo - stanton


On page 43 Ferrini writes: "It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release. It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station. This scene was not in the original script and we publish now the description based on Leone's personal print. The second one is about Brett McBains hunting scene with his son Timmy; it's much longer and detailed compaired to the commercial release.



So it is fair to assume, Scorsese was working under the assumption that his print was the correct version since it was given to him by Leone, but as we can see it was not the theatrical release.

And here is already the problem, the McBain scene is the same in all versions. It's one of those which are not longer in the 178 min ital. version. Nor in any other version we know. No, one has to ask Scorsese why this alternative version of the Blu is like it is.

I also want to recap that there is a German guy who has watched OUTW in the early 80s twice in Bologna in a normal cinema (not at a film festival), and claims that he saw there the long version, but without the rising scene. Which would then have been a 175 min version, which correspondents with the runtime of the Anica.it site.

I think Leone's personal print is the 178 min version which was refurbished in the 90s. Ans since then released in Italy as DC.

 32 
 : October 19, 2018, 04:25:21 AM 
dave jenkins - stanton
This is all so arbitrary, I wonder why he wasn't able to find more than 100 films ...

... just like he did not found any of the "shooter and shootee in one frame" kind of scenes. ;)

 33 
 : October 18, 2018, 11:59:31 PM 
dave jenkins - drinkanddestroy
from Frayling's book "Once Upon a Time in Italy: The Westerns of Sergio Leone," (2005) here are the movies he says are referenced on OUATITW, following conversations he had with Leone, Bertolucci, Argento and Donati. "Some citations they could remember clearly; some they were no longer certain about."

ACE IN THE HOLE (not a Western)
THE BRAVADOS
CIMARRON (1960)
COMANCHE STATION
THE COMANCHEROS
DODGE CITY
DUEL IN THE SUN
THE FAR COUNTRY
FAREWELL, MY LOVELY (not a Western)
THE FASTEST GUN ALIVE
THE FURIES
HIGH NOON
HOW THE WEST WAS WON
HUD
THE IRON HORSE
JOHNNY GUITAR
JUBAL
THE LAST SUNSET
LAST TRAIN FROM GUN HILL
THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN
MAN OF THE WEST
THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE
MAN WITHOUT A STAR
MY DARLING CLEMENTINE
NIGHT PASSAGE
NORTH BY NORTHWEST (not a Western)
PURSUED
RANCHO NOTORIOUS
RIDE LONESOME
RIO BRAVO
RIVER OF NO RETURN
THE RETURN OF FRANK JAMES
RUN OF THE ARROW
THE SEARCHERS
SERGEANT RUTLEDGE
SHANE
THE TALL T
3:10 TO YUMA
TRIBUTE TO A BAD MAN
TWO RODE TOGETHER
UNION PACIFIC
THE VIOLENT MEN
WAGON MASTER
WARLOCK
WESTERN UNION
WINCHESTER '73


That's over 45 movies (minus the 3 non-Westerns, still over 40 Westerns). In some cases the reference is general, to several films, not just one.

For example, the fact that Morton is disabled, says Frayling, is influenced by "a succession of wheelchair-confined – and tyrannical – patriarchs, who try to run their landholdings with a rod of iron. Among the most memorable are ..." and Frayling goes on to list DUEL IN THE SUN, THE FURIES, and THE VIOLENT MEN. "The closest to Morton is edward G. Robinson in THE VIOLENT MEN." Would you count that as 4 references (or more?) or just one?

Similarly, when Cheyenne tells Jill, "You make good coffee," Frayling says: "Gags about making coffee around the campfire abound in the 1950's Western," including THE TALL T and TWO RODE TOGETHER. "But the actual line seems to come from the film noir FAREWELL MY LOVELY." Would you count that as 3 (or more?) references, or just one?

Final example: When Frank says, "Nothing matters now ... I came here to see you," Frayling says that influences – regarding a man on a mission from which nothing can stop him – include the Ranown Westerns, especially THE TALL T, RIDE LONESOME, and COMANCHE STATION, as well as MAN OF THE WEST. Would you count that as 4 or more?


And of course, many of the films listed above have more than one reference in OUATITW.


Regarding DJ's question of 30 vs. 35: It's entirely possible that neither number is too specific, but just a rounded/general figure. The quote from Frayling that DJ wrote in the first post in this thread (which I assume is from STDWD) is that Frayling said there were "about 30" references. "About 30" is not all that much different from "35."

Of course, as DJ says, it's also possible that in the time since Frayling wrote these books, he discovered more, or fans may have pointed out more to him.

If n_l is going to ask him about this, I think this is the way the question should be worded: "In 'OUAT in Italy,' you list more than 40 references to Hollywood Westerns that are in OUATITW. In the years since that book was published, have you discovered any more?" Perhaps you can gather the references mentioned in this thread (wanna read through 13 pages? ;) ) that are not mentioned in OUAT in Italy and ask him what he thinks of them ;)


 34 
 : October 18, 2018, 11:03:27 PM 
PowerRR - drinkanddestroy
I don’t agree with the premise that FAFDM has bad cinematography - though it doesn’t have a scene with bravura camerawork that calls attention to itself like Ecstasy of Gold, the Trio, or Jill’s arrival at Sweetwater. Anyway, there is more to a movie than cinematography amd camerawork. If you only gave me one movie for my desert island, it’s FAFDM.

The production design, the look, the feel, the grittiness, the faces of all the bad guys, the scenes in the church, Gian Maria Volonte - there is plenty that FAFDM has better than the others.

I hope I don’t sound like I am bashing the others: if FAFDM is my #1, the other Leone films are all close behind at #2, #3, etc. There is sublime greatness in all of them - and none of the flaws that are in OUATIA, btw, which is a mess and a masterpiece at the same time ;) I don’t even think that the missing 25 mins. or so explain everything. Maybe the additional missing hours would.

But I digress ...

 35 
 : October 18, 2018, 10:49:28 PM 
Leonardo - drinkanddestroy
Thanks for the references :)

I suppose Leone's personal print of GBU might well have had the grotto scene included too since it was shown at the premiere before being removed. Personally I think that the "rising scene" being in the personal print of OUATITW that Scorsese received is not reason enough to include it without any option to watch the film without it. Presumably it was Leone who decided that audiences should not see that scene theatrically just as he had decided to remove the grotto scene from GBU.

 If you want to watch the movie without that scene, it’s simple: as soon as the four people are shot, click “next chapter“ and it take you to the next scene :)

 36 
 : October 18, 2018, 06:31:06 PM 
Leonardo - Jordan Krug
Yes, I agree with you. The 1968 release cut should be the standard.

 37 
 : October 18, 2018, 06:13:51 PM 
PowerRR - Novecento
- they were the exception and not the rule, just like DJ said

Well I agree that DJ's point is valid, but I would still argue that they largely still are exceptions and that much of what looks "better" is more often the result of better cameras than better talent.

 38 
 : October 18, 2018, 06:06:58 PM 
Leonardo - Novecento
Thanks for the references :)

On page 43 Ferrini writes: "It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release. It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station....

I suppose Leone's personal print of GBU might well have had the grotto scene included too since it was shown at the premiere before being removed. Personally I think that the "rising scene" being in the personal print of OUATITW that Scorsese received is not reason enough to include it without any option to watch the film without it. Presumably it was Leone who decided that audiences should not see that scene theatrically just as he had decided to remove the grotto scene from GBU.

 39 
 : October 18, 2018, 04:41:56 PM 
Rblondie - dave jenkins
I'd go higher.

 40 
 : October 18, 2018, 04:14:27 PM 
Leonardo - Jordan Krug
Yes - where did you read that? Regardless, narrative aside, the editing clearly shows that the rising scene was not supposed to be there and the transition was supposed to be straight to the McBain ranch.

Leone interview in Diego Gabutti's "C'era una volta in America" (page 37) , when he talks about OUTITW: "People very often ask me whether my personal print of the movie contains scenes which had not been added in the final theatrical release" he said grinning "You see? It's like everybody wants me to add a little piece to it..!"
But I think the definite answer about missing scenes in OUTITW is in Franco Ferrini's book "L'antiwestern e il caso Leone" published in 1971. There is a part of an interview with Leone dedicated to cuts and missing scenes of all his westerns, and concerning OUTITW Leone says (page 42): "The scene with the laundry owner's wife and the sheriff is missing, another one in the barbershop, which was particularly funny" The interviewer then asks about the massacre scene (Morton's train) and Leone says: "No, that one I left out on purpose, it was more important to show the result rather than how it happened".
On page 43 Ferrini writes: "It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release. It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station. This scene was not in the original script and we publish now the description based on Leone's personal print. The second one is about Brett McBains hunting scene with his son Timmy; it's much longer and detailed compaired to the commercial release.

Now we look at an interview with Scorsese - where he says Leone gave him his personal print of the film:

When did you meet Sergio Leone for the first time?

It was at Cannes in 1976, during a dinner at the Oasis, the year when Taxi Driver was competing. There was Costa-Gavras, Sergio Leone, both members of the jury, I, Robert De Niro, Paul Schrader, the screenwriter of Taxi Driver, Jodie Foster, Michael and Julia Phillips, producers of the film. Paul Schrader had toasted Leone to thank him for having toured with Once Upon a Time in the West one of the greatest westerns in cinematic history. We had arrived two days earlier in Cannes and depression we had earned. Tennessee Williams, the jury foreman, told the press he did not like at all Taxi Driver, he was too violent. At dinner, Sergio Leone and Costa-Gavras told us they liked the film. We thought Taxi Driver could still win a prize, perhaps for his screenplay, or its actors. But it took the Palme d'Or! And that is thanks to Sergio Leone.

How has your relationship with him?

I lived partly in Rome between 1978 and 1981. I saw him regularly. Particularly at a luncheon at his home December 31, 1979. I met his wife, his family, met the set designer Dante Ferretti, with whom I will work later on The Age of Innocence, Casino, Kundun, Gangs of New York, Aviator and Hugo Cabret. He knew how much I loved Once Upon a Time in the West, he gave me his copy of the film. It is this copy that I projected in 1980 Film Festival in New York. It was the first time I spoke publicly about the crucial issue of the preservation of films, and more specifically the question of color, which happens if the coils are not kept properly. When Sergio Leone came to New York, I offered to come to dinner with my parents who still lived on the Lower East Side in a building without elevator. We went with Elio Petri (the director of The Working Class Goes to Heaven, Golden Palm at Cannes in 1972). He especially liked the Sicilian cooking from my mother, very different from Roman cuisine to which he was accustomed. And my mother was sensitive to his knife and fork!

So it is fair to assume, Scorsese was working under the assumption that his print was the correct version since it was given to him by Leone, but as we can see it was not the theatrical release.

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