DYS soundtrack comparison

[stanton]

Isn't there really any Leone statement about this whole John/ Sean thing?

It is very irritating. In the End everybody assumed that John is Sean, and there must be interview parts about this.

That Mallory cheated on Nolan first is too far fetched for me, but even that Sean is not John and in fact Nolan is Sean is for me a bit too vague. Not really grounded in the film's structure, even if it is a pretty interesting interpretation.

[drinkanddestroy]

btw I just noticed that this Finnur guy who posted these youtube clips is a) the same Beaver follower who posted the negative review about the audio on Beaver's page; and B) specifically bashed DVD Savant in the description of the video on his youtube page... I totally did not realize that during all this time that we've been mentioning Erickson  

[Groggy]

Personally, I never saw that much significance (plot-wise anyway) in the final flashback. John was just reminiscing of a happier moment at the point of dying. He has fond memories of Nolan and the girl, why wouldn't he remember them both? There could be deeper significance to it, but I don't think there need be.

The problem with Erickson's theory is that there's nothing to directly support it. You can read miles into a facial gesture or close-up (just look at the arguments over OUATIA's ending) so I wouldn't claim it's completely invalid. The flashbacks are too elliptical to prove anything definitely, however, beyond Nolan betraying John for one reason or another. Guilt certainly isn't contingent upon betrayal: he killed his best friend. Call me square but I'll stick with a straight interpretation of this sequence.

[Groggy]

Isn't there really any Leone statement about this whole John/ Sean thing?

It is very irritating. In the End everybody assumed that John is Sean, and there must be interview parts about this.

Pardon my ignorance/bad memory but where did the name Nolan originate from? Was it in a screenplay or just something Frayling picked up? He doesn't always cite his sources.

[stanton]

Don't remember either. He was called so in this thread. He isn't named in the film, and the credits don't mention him.

Books call him only "John's friend in the flashback" (probably not his name )

[drinkanddestroy]

 the name Nolan comes from the script. I was unaware of the fact that (according to Erickson), the full name in the script is "Sean Nolan."

Frayling said that the two major influences on DYS were The Informer (for the betrayals) and The Quiet Man (for the lush greenery of Ireland); he says that Leone screened The Informer repeatedly, I think on a moviola, while making DYS. I believe it was also Frayling who pointed out the reference to the Victor McLaglen character in The Informer who is named "Guippo Nolan"

[dave jenkins]

the name Nolan comes from the script. I was unaware of the fact that (according to Erickson), the full name in the script is "Sean Nolan."

I don't believe this is correct. Although I've never seen the script, my understanding is that Mallory's friend is called only "Nolan". No first name is given.

Nonetheless, for those of you who remember my My Three Seans theory, Nolan could have been called Sean. But, common name that it is, why couldn't Mallory also have been Sean? In fact, even if he were christened John, isn't it likely that a patriot to the Irish cause would have Gaelicized his name? There's nothing to prevent Mallory and Nolan from both having the same first name, and it wouldn't be that much of a coincidence.

As we have discussed at length elsewhere, John and Sean are different forms of the same name. When Juan finds out that Mallory is going by John, he recognizes the Anglicized form of his name and immediately feels kinship with the man. Juan is also the third Sean. When Carla Leone's lyric is intoned on the soundtrack, a Trinity of Friendship is being invoked.

[drinkanddestroy]

I don't believe this is correct. Although I've never seen the script, my understanding is that Mallory's friend is called only "Nolan". No first name is given.

Nonetheless, for those of you who remember my My Three Seans theory, Nolan could have been called Sean. But, common name that it is, why couldn't Mallory also have been Sean? In fact, even if he were christened John, isn't it likely that a patriot to the Irish cause would have Gaelicized his name? There's nothing to prevent Mallory and Nolan from both having the same first name, and it wouldn't be that much of a coincidence.

As we have discussed at length elsewhere, John and Sean are different forms of the same name. When Juan finds out that Mallory is going by John, he recognizes the Anglicized form of his name and immediately feels kinship with the man. Juan is also the third Sean. When Carla Leone's lyric is intoned on the soundtrack, a Trinity of Friendship is being invoked.

I never saw the script; the part about Nolan's first name being Sean comes from Erickson's "Sorting Out the Versions" piece on the bonus features of the dvd. I disagree with so much of what Erickson says in that piece, it wouldn't surprise me if the part about Nolan's first name being Sean is bullshit too! (I discussed Erickson's theories about Sean/John extensively here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=5936.msg157961#msg157961 )

btw, the one point Erickson makes which I initially thought was a good point, is that since Irishman newspaper calls him "John Mallory" that is proof that his name is not really Sean; if his Irish name was Sean, wouldn't the Irish newspaper use that name? 

Well, now I've finally realized that Erickson is probably wrong about that point as well: the newspaper (called the New Irishman or something like that) is obviously not a newspaper that is sympathetic to the revolution, because it prints the WANTED ad for Mallory! No newspaper that is sympathetic to the revolution would print a WANTED ad for a revolutionary! So even though the word Irishman is in the newspaper, it's obvious that this paper is sympathetic to the British cause, and not to the revolutionary cause! Therefore, it is no wonder that the paper uses the name John and not Sean; as has been discussed elsewhere (eg. http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1271.msg80155#msg80155 ) Sean is the name that only those who were sympathetic to Irish independence would have used.

 So the fact the newspaper uses the name John does not necessarily prove that Mallory's Irish name is not Sean.

[Novecento]

Received a nice reply from Mr. Erickson. I'll reproduce the relevant sections.

...I'm told that that copy had a lot more profanity that's been relooped...

That's in the youtube comparison as well. Why on earth would they censor the dialogue on a DVD purchased for home use?

The problem with Erickson's theory is that there's nothing to directly support it. You can read miles into a facial gesture or close-up (just look at the arguments over OUATIA's ending) so I wouldn't claim it's completely invalid. The flashbacks are too elliptical to prove anything definitely, however, beyond Nolan betraying John for one reason or another. Guilt certainly isn't contingent upon betrayal: he killed his best friend. Call me square but I'll stick with a straight interpretation of this sequence.

That's the very problem. From Leone's comments it doesn't seem there was any intention to show tension between them. Unfortunately that is a very possible interpretation with this modified soundtrack.

[drinkanddestroy]

RE: the discussion of similarities between the final flashback music and the music that plays in the pub when Mallory kills Nolan: remember also that the music that plays during that pub scene was also changed! It's the second of the 3 links I provided in the first post in this thread; here it is again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg_hPzmZYC4  (I believe that the first version is the OV, and the second version the SE, right?) In that (infamous?) Erickson piece "Sorting out the Versions, where this music is references, he also makes no mention of this music being switched.

---
I sure hope that at some point in the not too distant future, we get a definitive restoration of this movie with all the scenes and the correct music. For everyone who didn't live in Italy during the movie's original theatrical release (ie. more 95% of Leone fans alive today)  it would be the first time they've seen the movie exactly as it was intended

[stanton]

Again my question for the pup scene. Where's the big difference between the 2 versions?

For the final flashback it is of course a difference.

[The clint]

Again my question for the pup scene. Where's the big difference between the 2 versions?

For the final flashback it is of course a difference.

The original music (Italian DVDs, 2003 MGM DVD) that plays over the slow motion pub scene in which John kills both soldiers and then his friend is track 15, disc 2 on the expanded soundtrack. The SE features a very makeshift edit of two takes (again!) starting with a few seconds of track 1, disc 1 and then using the second gunshot to cover up a splice to track 13, disc 2 (the same track that was later re-used for the SE flashback scene and then yet AGAIN over the closing credits. No version of the film featured this track anywhere before the SE).

[uncknown]

who is this "the clint" guy?
 

[The clint]

Was that a rhetorical question?

[noodles_leone]

WHo's this Uncknown guy?