DYS soundtrack comparison

[drinkanddestroy]

The old DVD did not had that flashback ending. It was the SE which showed this ending for the first time.

I may have misspoke in saying "the old dvd." i mean whichever dvd has the first version posted in this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOc13iAmXPc (the description by the guy who posted it on YouTube said it's on the Italian and UK dvd's).

[stanton]

No ,it is only on the Italian DVD.

There are 2 DVDs with English audio .the original mono DVD which does not contain that scene, but is otherwise uncut, and the SE DVD with the re-worked 5.1 sound.

As I understand it this one contains a different score for this scene than the Italian version. Too bad, but the 2nd version on the Youtube clip is less kitschy than the ohehr one supposed to be the original one.

[The clint]

I am not sure which cue belongs at the end of DYS because i never saw the unedited version until the se dvd. But,  i think the best answer would come from the French version.
Leone was revered in France and I believe DYS played there UNCUT in its initial run.
After Leone's death it was re-released in DOlby Stereo. This version can be heard on the MGM special edition FRENCH audio track and is far superior to John Jerk's version.

ps John Jerk is the devil!

I'm afraid this is incorrect. The French language version on the SE does indeed have the correct music for the flashback in which John shoots his friend, but contains the same music for the final flashback and end credits (both incorrect cues).

The final flashback music that plays in the sedvd is how Morricone composed and conducted it.
Since it seems to follow the aCTION , it is probably the correct music.

Incorrect again! The music that plays over the final flashback on the SE is in fact a mix of TWO songs from the soundtrack: The beginning with them running in the field re-uses the opening bars of "I figli morti" (track #5, disc 1) but the song is then cross-faded to a rather echoey mix of "giu la testa" (track #13, disc 2) that had only appeared on compilation albums before the release of the SE! If this were the correct mix this would be the only time a song is cross-faded into another in a Leone film!

You are assuming that the You Tube version is the original one.
I  believe the poster simply dubbed/overlayed  the music he THOUGHT was used in the original version.
THE FINAL FLASHBACK was severely shortened by the distributors in the various countries it played. Leone complained that even in ITALY it was shortened.
Unless one saw the film when it was originally released in a country that did not shorten it, there is no way of knowing for sure.
I  am going to surmise the se is correct for the reasons stated;
1. It is the same on the French audio which is taken from a composite mix (although it is POSSIBLE Jerk played around with it, I doubt it)
2. the Morricone piece is exactly the same length and seems to match the action e.g. the way it fades out with the picture

Christopher Frayling might know - ask him!
brucer

Jesus Christ, I'm beginning to think you're being payed by MGM to say these things! Firstly, it's true that many countries had a shortened version of the flashback but that doesn't really matter because in all of them you can still hear the opening bars, and guess what, they're the opening bars of track #1, disc 1 of the soundtrack. None of that should matter either because when the Italians (who definitely have more knowledge and respect for Leone's work than MGM) restored the film for DVD they used the entire track #1 for the sequence, exactly the way it's shown on the youtube video!

Secondly, track #13, disc 2 on the soundtrack (the one that's used for the SE) is not the same length as the flashback sequence. It clocks in at a mere 3:02 while the flashback itself (not counting the lead-in shot of John) is 3:25. So including the lead-in the whole track should run about 3:40 which only fits two tracks on the soundtrack, track #1, disc 1 and track #15, disc 2, which is the version that already played during the previous flashback of John murdering his friend (in the original version at least).

And no, Christopher Frayling doesn't know, he thinks the SE mix is correct for some crazy reason (at least MGM got him to acknowledge it in the commentary).

[stanton]

I always thought this final flashback was in no version until the reconstruction from 1996 by this Claver Salizzato guy. So the Italian DVD should contain the correct audio for the scene.

[Novecento]

The music that plays over the final flashback on the SE is in fact a mix of TWO songs from the soundtrack: The beginning with them running in the field re-uses the opening bars of "I figli morti" (track #5, disc 1) but the song is then cross-faded to a rather echoey mix of "giu la testa" (track #13, disc 2) that had only appeared on compilation albums before the release of the SE! If this were the correct mix this would be the only time a song is cross-faded into another in a Leone film!

...None of that should matter either because when the Italians (who definitely have more knowledge and respect for Leone's work than MGM) restored the film for DVD they used the entire track #1 for the sequence, exactly the way it's shown on the youtube video!

I always thought this final flashback was in no version until the reconstruction from 1996 by this Claver Salizzato guy. So the Italian DVD should contain the correct audio for the scene.

That sounds like a convincing argument to me. Plus it's apparent just by watching and listening - the scene just plays so much better and makes so much more sense with the unbroken score.

[stanton]

And coming back to the Italian version, the YouTube only compares the 2 English DVDs, but has anyone checked the Italian version?

[The clint]

And coming back to the Italian version, the YouTube only compares the 2 English DVDs, but has anyone checked the Italian version?

The youtube video compares the Italian CVC DVD to the English CE. The old English DVD has no final flashback scene. I can verify this, I have all three

[stanton]

It's too bad that we all have to deal with English versions of Italian films, and that thanks to the splitting of the world rights between Italy and the MGM respective Paramount we don't get the Italian versions.
At least the differences are not that big.

Btw the German rights for FoD and FaFDM are not by MGM, but by Paramount. They thankfully remastered the mono audio of the German versions instead of creating a fake 5.1 sound. For the English audio it contains the mono version and the 5.1 upmix.

[drinkanddestroy]

It's too bad that we all have to deal with English versions of Italian films, and that thanks to the splitting of the world rights between Italy and the MGM respective Paramount we don't get the Italian versions.
At least the differences are not that big.

Btw the German rights for FoD and FaFDM are not by MGM, but by Paramount. They thankfully remastered the mono audio of the German versions instead of creating a fake 5.1 sound. For the English audio it contains the mono version and the 5.1 upmix.

correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Special edition dvd's (and blu rays) of FOD and FAFDM also have the English mono?

[drinkanddestroy]

And no, Christopher Frayling doesn't know, he thinks the SE mix is correct for some crazy reason (at least MGM got him to acknowledge it in the commentary).

Thanks for your last post, it seems to be very well-researched  


However, I believe you are mistaken about Frayling saying the SE mix is incorrect in the commentary. I just watched the commentary a couple of nights ago, I don't believe that Frayling says a word about SE audio mix being correct, nor does he even mention that there is a discrepancy between various audio versions.


There is a segment in the dvd's bonus features  called "Sorting Out the Versions" -- the credits say that the segment it is written and edited by Glenn Erickson; I am not sure if Erickson is the one who narrates it as well. In that segment -- which I analyzed extensively here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=5936.msg157961#msg157961 -- Erickson mentions that the fact that the music stops and starts again as proof of his theory that Mallory was not happy with the love triangle; but Erickson makes no mention of the fact that the music is different in other dvd's.


But I do not believe that Frayling's commentary ever addresses the musical discrepancies between the various versions of the final flashback(except when he mentions that the cussing was initially taken out and later put back in), nor does he even address the issue of the music's stopping and starting again.

[Groggy]

You could always ask Mr. Erickson.

[Novecento]

Erickson mentions that the fact that the music stops and starts again as proof of his theory that Mallory was not happy with the love triangle; but Erickson makes no mention of the fact that the music is different in other dvd's.

I guess that's the crux of the issue; the music makes all the difference. From what I remember about Leone's comments on this, surely the unbroken music is the intended one?

[stanton]

Did he say anything anywhere about this scene?

[stanton]

I compared the scores of the pup scene on my DVD.

The German and the Spanish version are slightly different to the English and the Polish version. Only that I don't see much difference between the versions.

[drinkanddestroy]

You know the final flashback in The Godfather Part II, where the family is gathered for Vito's birthday party just after the attack on Pear Harbor: everyone is upset at Michael for enlisting in the Marines, except Fredo, who is proud of him and congratulates him. That flashback shown just after the scene where Michael has Fredo killed -- Fredo, the brother who stood by him and supported him even when the others criticized him.


I understood the final flashback of DYS to serve a similar function (perhaps among other things). When we see there how close Mallory and Nolan are: Nolan is kissing his girl, and Mallory is smiling, indicating that he is basically at peace with it, they both love the same girl but they are  happy with the situation, that's how close they are -- that serves to make Mallory's murder of Nolan even more poignant. Nolan ratted out Mallory after being tortured,  but now Mallory pulls a rifle and kills the soldiers..... so they could all be safe and free....but no, he blows away Nolan, because he won't forgive him for betraying him. Rather than understanding that his friend only betrayed him after being tortured, Mallory kills him. When we see, in the final flashback, how close Mallory and Nolan were, that they were accepting of the fact that the girl was also sleeping with the other guy, that makes Mallory's act of killing Nolan all the more egregious, and explains his motivations and what's been haunting him all these years, and his comments to Villega that he doesn't believe in anything any more, and that he only "judged" once before, etc.

So I think that the final flashback serves a similar function to the one in GFII --  indicating the close friendship, and therefore the gravity of Mallory's act of killing Nolan -- IF the music is indeed supposed to be continuous, indicating that all was harmonious.

But if the music is supposed to start and stop, and they are really unhappy with the love triangle, then what's the point iof that flashback, and Mallory's smile at the end?

----

on a separate note, I was thinking about how Frayling has spoken a lot about how the major influences on DYS were Ford's 2 Irish films, The Informer (for the betrayal)  and The Quiet Man (for the lush greenery of the Irish countryside). Well one of the themes of The Informer was forgiveness, specifically Catholic-themed forgiveness,  as Victor McLagelen -- whose character's last name is Nolan -- seeks and is ultimately granted forgiveness by the mother of his friend that he'd betrayed, just before McLaglen dies, in a church.

We can also say that Mallory's sin was "judging," ie. refusing to forgive, his own friend who had betrayed him, which in turn led to Mallory's being miserable for all these years. In the end, he achieves his redemption when he refuses to judge Villega after the latter's betrayals, even encouraging him to jump off the train. He uses the phrase "for Christs's sake, save yourself!" which may well be a double meaning, to be taken literally in a Catholic sense. Furthermore, at the end, he returns Juan's crucifix to him, perhaps indicating the repentance and redemption of both of them. So at the end, both Catholic characters in DYS achieve redemption just as McLaglen's did in The Informer.