'West' blu ray May 31

[dave jenkins]

The player without the new screen isn't really worth it. You won't see the increased resolution if you don't have something that displays it.

[stanton]

But the answer is no longer definitive. It's not necessarily NOT a D.C. It's a grey area...why would Leone keep a scene in his own print in if he personally wanted it out? I agree with you that it was not included in the release version - but maybe somebody else made him cut it from that.

This is the first evidence I've heard that argues for the rising scene being included. Maybe this is the conclusion Scorsese et al came to. I guess we'll never know what Leone would consider the definitive version.

In the end we don't know.
I never have read anything from Leone complaining about the theatrical version. Question is still where Leone derived this long version from. It contains alternative shots, and one short scene is missing, and the score is also partly different.
And even if Leone kept this print with the Rising scene it doesn't mean that he preferred the film with the scene.
The added 12 min have btw only one sentence of dialogue, and that is in one of the alternative shots. What makes the Rising scene different from all the other scenes from the original shooting script is that it contains no dialogue. I assume that the other scenes which were filmed and not used were never dubbed, which means no dialogue, no sound, no music. The Rising scene was at least dubbed for the chopped-up English print.

Maybe this long version was a first version before the final fine cutting was done. Maybe it simply contains all the material which was dubbed. Maybe it is the DC. Maybe something else.

[Jordan Krug]

Yes, you make some solid and valid points Stanton. I was just reacting to the idea that this other cut was "Leone's Personal print" which I've never read described as such except for this new quote from the french book, published in 1971 (only a couple years after the film) where the author had personal interaction with Leone and was able to watch "Leone's cut". You're right in assuming it was probably a workprint or unfinished version...however it must have been somewhat finished as they were able to pull a decent enough print to make the Italian dvd's in 1995.

On page 43 Ferrini writes: "It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release. It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station. This scene was not in the original script and we publish now the description based on Leone's personal print. The second one is about Brett McBains hunting scene with his son Timmy; it's much longer and detailed compared to the commercial release.



For instance in Oreste De Fornari's Sergio Leone book, it says:

"Some scenes were originally longer than in the release version: Harmonica gets up again after the opening duel; the Mcbains return from the hunt just before the massacre; Harmonica tails Wobbles to Morton's private railway car. These scenes were put back into the edition restored in 1995 under the direction of Clavier Salizzato, with the assistance of Sergio leone Production Telepiu, Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia Cinceteca Nazionale. It is 11 minutes longer than the original."

In that book it's not implied that it's Leone's cut.

Also, in Frayling's spaghetti westerns book he says he presumes the rising scene was re-instated to make up for the saloon scene. It certainly makes sense as such, but I think that we're assuming that was more of a "fact" than it might be.

*edit*
After reading the Video Watchdog article again, the origin of the rising scene post first release is pretty clear (instated in the 70's into new 16mm prints, retained for all subsequent prints). It's still unclear why it's in "Leone's personal print". However the author of the V.W. article again uses Frayling's presumption about reason behind the inclusion of the scene as more "fact" than it might be. Again, I agree it makes sense, but it's still only a theory. He also chooses to ignore the 1995 italian version altogether...

[stanton]

How long and detailed is this Video Watchdog article?

Funnily the mentioned hunting scene respective the complete scene with McBain's family is in all versions the same.

[stanton]

I was just reacting to the idea that this other cut was "Leone's Personal print" which I've never read described as such except for this new quote from the french book, published in 1971 (only a couple years after the film) where the author had personal interaction with Leone and was able to watch "Leone's cut". You're right in assuming it was probably a workprint or unfinished version...however it must have been somewhat finished as they were able to pull a decent enough print to make the Italian dvd's in 1995.

On page 43 Ferrini writes: "It should be kept in mind that Leone's personal print is slightly longer than the theatrical release. It has two scenes which were not added. The first one showing Harmonica rising after being wounded at the train station. This scene was not in the original script and we publish now the description based on Leone's personal print. The second one is about Brett McBains hunting scene with his son Timmy; it's much longer and detailed compared to the commercial release.

When the long version was first shown on German TV my newspaper announced it as a private copy of Leone found in his archive. And surprisingly they did not try to sell it as DC.
The quote from the Ferini book was since then the first thing which confirmed that such a copy exists.

The Italian DVD claims:

"This is the uncut version the Director wanted, never released in the movie houses. Among others this restoration involved Tonino Delli Colli, Ennio Morricone, Sergio Leone Production, C.S.C. and Cineteca Nazionale.

But in a recent German Leone book the author writes about the 177 min version:

"It is controversial, if this is the from Leone intended version"

Which means that there was probably some discussion in Italy if it is true what the DVD claims. And if so I would really like to read this discussions.
And I would like to read this Video Watchdog article.


Frankly said, for the most parts, all the 165 min versions work better than the long version. Imo

Apart from that tracking shot along the train before we first see CC (23:51) and the segment with the tin soldiers of Morton (at 1:25:24) all the other added pieces don't help the film, but only make it longer.
Ohh, and the first scene of course. For the first 10 min the Paramount DVD is indeed comparatively fast, too fast cause it is too short. But most of the added shots and pieces of the first 10 min were already part of the German version, and I don't want to miss them.

[Jordan Krug]

How long and detailed is this Video Watchdog article?

And the hunting scene respective the complete scene with McBain's family is in all versions the same.

It's very detailed and explores the "6 versions" of OATITW as it has existed in US prints. I would consider it the definitive word on the US cuts, but not the international, it does not really have any info on italian/german/french prints. Maybe when I get a chance I can scan it for everyone, it's very informative.

here's a lot of what we're talking about (and they even quote the board

http://criterionforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2698&start=125

I agree, the only shot I really miss in the 165 min version is the shot of the tin soldier toppling and morton catching it. For me it really is a nice allusion to his troubles.



Does anyone know if the end music is still messed up on the Blu Ray? (haven't been able to find it yet in Canada)

[stanton]

It's very detailed and explores the "6 versions" of OATITW as it has existed in US prints. I would consider it the definitive word on the US cuts, but not the international, it does not really have any info on italian/german/french prints. Maybe when I get a chance I can scan it for everyone, it's very informative.

A scan would be great

[drinkanddestroy]

so once we see the scene at the trading post, do you believe that the Rising scene is redundant? (that would counter the stdwd theory; IMO, the Rising scene is essential for the stdwd theory)

[drinkanddestroy]

The player without the new screen isn't really worth it. You won't see the increased resolution if you don't have something that displays it.

but I guess one advantage of getting a BRP anyway is that there are certain extra features included on some movie's BR discs that are not on the dvd (eg. the Scorcese version of OUATITW, and Frayling's commentary on GBU...)

[Jordan Krug]

A scan would be great

Scans uploaded in the OUATITW forum under a new topic. 

[drinkanddestroy]

Thanks much for posting the scans, Jordan. I have begun reading it already and plan to finish it soon; it is much appreciated  




I wondering whether anyone who has seen the new BR can please answer the following questions for me (I apologize if they have been answered on this board previously; don't recall seeing them answered anywhere here, and I have not found any helpful discussions on Amazon or imdb either). Here goes:

1) My understanding is that the new BR has both the 165-minute version we have currently seen on the Paramount release, plus the Scorcese longer version. Is this correct?

2) what special features are included on the BR in addition to whatever is on the Paramount release? (I checked Amazon and it doesn't list the special features).

3) specifically, I want to know if any commentaries offered in addition to the one already offered on the Paramount dvd?
One big problem I have with the Paramount dvd is the commentaries. Rather than having Frayling -- probably the most knowledgeable person ever on Leone -- deliver the entire commentary, there is a hodgepodge of people delivering commentary various parts of the movie, some better than others, but it doesn't flow very well. They should have had Frayling do it himself, beginning to end. Does Frayling and/or anyone else deliver a feature-length audio commentary on the BR in addition to the commentary that can be found on the Paramount dvd?

4) on Amazon, the BR is listed as having an aspect ratio of 1.85:1. Is that indeed the aspect ratio of the BR disc? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me they did not chop the sides of the movie for the BR. PLEASE  

3) Does the Scorcese version end with the "Finale" music (as I understand Leone intended), or does it end with "Farewell to Cheyenne" playing over the closing credits as in the dvd?

Thanks!

[Jordan Krug]

[

Thanks much for posting the scans, Jordan. I have begun reading it already and plan to finish it soon; it is much appreciated  

No problem, it puts into print a lot of what's been debated over the years..I downloaded a BR rip of the film this morning (and it's preceded by the new restoration card so I know its genuine) so even though I don't have the BR itself, I took a quick look and maybe I can answer some of your questions, although until I have the actual BR I won't be 100% sure...I've also read many of the reviews which is how I can answer your questions about the bonus features etc.


I wondering whether anyone who has seen the new BR can please answer the following questions for me (I apologize if they have been answered on this board previously; don't recall seeing them answered anywhere here, and I have not found any helpful discussions on Amazon or imdb either). Here goes:

1) My understanding is that the new BR has both the 165-minute version we have currently seen on the Paramount release, plus the Scorcese longer version. Is this correct?

Yes, contrary to what was reported confusingly on thedigitalbits, this is what the blu ray has.


2) what special features are included on the BR in addition to whatever is on the Paramount release? (I checked Amazon and it doesn't list the special features).

No NEW features. Only all the old dvd features have been ported over (and in sd, not HD)


3) specifically, I want to know if any commentaries offered in addition to the one already offered on the Paramount dvd?
One big problem I have with the Paramount dvd is the commentaries. Rather than having Frayling -- probably the most knowledgeable person ever on Leone -- deliver the entire commentary, there is a hodgepodge of people delivering commentary various parts of the movie, some better than others, but it doesn't flow very well. They should have had Frayling do it himself, beginning to end. Does Frayling and/or anyone else deliver a feature-length audio commentary on the BR in addition to the commentary that can be found on the Paramount dvd?

Same commentary, I agree, I'd rather just have Frayling.



4) on Amazon, the BR is listed as having an aspect ratio of 1.85:1. Is that indeed the aspect ratio of the BR disc? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me they did not chop the sides of the movie for the BR. PLEASE  

No, it's 2:35 - the proper aspect.

3) Does the Scorcese version end with the "Finale" music (as I understand Leone intended), or does it end with "Farewell to Cheyenne" playing over the closing credits as in the dvd?

Ugh!!!, it ends like the DVD. Damn it, another chance to fix it and they blew it again.

[Lil Brutto]

Botched ending? All this hype over the years about the Scorcese restoration...for nothing.  Will these "pros" ever get this film right??

My BD is on the UPS truck and will be delivered today. I'm no longer very excited about it.

[Novecento]

For instance in Oreste De Fornari's Sergio Leone book, it says:

"Some scenes were originally longer than in the release version: Harmonica gets up again after the opening duel; the Mcbains return from the hunt just before the massacre; Harmonica tails Wobbles to Morton's private railway car. These scenes were put back into the edition restored in 1995 under the direction of Clavier Salizzato, with the assistance of Sergio leone Production Telepiu, Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia Cinceteca Nazionale. It is 11 minutes longer than the original."

In that book it's not implied that it's Leone's cut.

I was just reading DeFornari's book last night as well.

Claver Salizatto's name is misprinted as Clavier in this quote from page 73. It is correctly spelled as Claver on p4 where it says that the restored versions of OUATITW and DYS, edited by Claver Salizatto, were released at the Spoleto '95 and Venice '96 film festivals respectively.

What's interesting is that it seems that the original Italian release of DYS was slightly shorter than its, for example, French counterpart. Consequently, just because the rising scene was not in the Italian release of OUATITW does not necessarily mean Leone did not want it to be included. Of course, it doesn't mean the opposite either.

[stanton]

Jordan,  the Scorsese version is 39 sec longer, so is it then the first scene which is these 39 sec longer?