Sergio Leone Web Board
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 23, 2017, 10:20:13 PM
Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
News:


+  Sergio Leone Web Board
|-+  Films of Sergio Leone
| |-+  Once Upon A Time In The West (Moderators: cigar joe, moviesceleton, Dust Devil)
| | |-+  'West' blu ray May 31
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 13 Go Down Print
Author Topic: 'West' blu ray May 31  (Read 53748 times)
drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8316

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #90 on: June 07, 2011, 02:45:15 PM »

Thanks much, Jordan  Afro

1. so just to confirm: the only difference between the Scorcese version on the BRD and the Paramount dvd is the extra few seconds in the opening scene (which I understand was already available in some Italian versions), correct? (if that's the case, then there is no way I am purchasing the BRD just for a few seconds extra that are available on YouTube anyway)

2. Until I read the article you posted, I was never fully aware of all the different versions of OUATITW. Specifically, I wasn't aware of the different ending music (ie. that the film ends with Farewell to Cheyenne though Leone  intended it to end with the Finale music).

After reading that article in full, (remind me where it is from?) I realize for the first time how badly the ending music is screwed up (the other changes [ie. the brief moments cut from the opening scene and the addition of Harmonica Rising] don't really bother me), but the difference in ending music is terrible. One way I try to console myself and tell myself it ain't so bad is that the Cheyenne  music begins once the end credits begin to roll, after the movie is already "over," so it's not really changing the movie, just the credits music. But the truth is, I know it's just a lame attempt to console myself; it is a HUGE screwup    Angry

how many fucking times can studios screw this up before they finally realize YOU DON'T MESS WITH THE WORK OF A MASTER. all of the Once Upon a Time trilogy was screwed by the studios. sons of fucking bitches  Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry

« Last Edit: June 07, 2011, 02:55:08 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
Jordan Krug
Bounty Killer
*****
Online Online

Posts: 566


Crazy bellringer was right....


View Profile
« Reply #91 on: June 07, 2011, 04:46:56 PM »

Jordan,  the Scorsese version is 39 sec longer, so is it then the first scene which is these 39 sec longer?

As I understand it, there are three versions of the opening (waiting for the train)- 1. the original u.s. premiere cut before it was edited 2. the slightly trimmed down cut after paramount butchered the rest (which up to the Scorcese restoration was the cut we all know) and 3. the 1995 italian "long" cut which has even more footage than #1.

It's my belief that the new blu-ray cut restores 39 seconds to make it the opening from #1. People are saying Scorcese arbitrarily chose new shots to be included after looking at #3, but I think they just found an existing print of #1. and used that opening. (we don't have anything from the #1 cut to compare that to though, so I'm theorizing, but to me that makes the most logical sense - I can't see Scorcese making ANY decisions on Leone's behalf).

**EDIT**

I'm probably wrong, see Stanton's observation about the german print below. So that means there are 4 versions and Scorcese's is #4...why the heck he would make choices like that is beyond me though.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 07:03:08 AM by Jordan Krug » Logged
Jordan Krug
Bounty Killer
*****
Online Online

Posts: 566


Crazy bellringer was right....


View Profile
« Reply #92 on: June 07, 2011, 04:51:09 PM »

Thanks much, Jordan  Afro

1. so just to confirm: the only difference between the Scorcese version on the BRD and the Paramount dvd is the extra few seconds in the opening scene (which I understand was already available in some Italian versions), correct? (if that's the case, then there is no way I am purchasing the BRD just for a few seconds extra that are available on YouTube anyway)

2. Until I read the article you posted, I was never fully aware of all the different versions of OUATITW. Specifically, I wasn't aware of the different ending music (ie. that the film ends with Farewell to Cheyenne though Leone  intended it to end with the Finale music).

After reading that article in full, (remind me where it is from?) I realize for the first time how badly the ending music is screwed up (the other changes [ie. the brief moments cut from the opening scene and the addition of Harmonica Rising] don't really bother me), but the difference in ending music is terrible. One way I try to console myself and tell myself it ain't so bad is that the Cheyenne  music begins once the end credits begin to roll, after the movie is already "over," so it's not really changing the movie, just the credits music. But the truth is, I know it's just a lame attempt to console myself; it is a HUGE screwup    Angry

how many fucking times can studios screw this up before they finally realize YOU DON'T MESS WITH THE WORK OF A MASTER. all of the Once Upon a Time trilogy was screwed by the studios. sons of fucking bitches  Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry


The weird thing is if you watch the 1995 italian "long cut" they use another messed up ending that uses a "freeze frame" (referenced in the video watchdog article). Even the italians got it wrong. I wonder if the original italian dvd or vhs or laserdisc has the "proper" ending. Or if there's still a film print out there somewhere.

Logged
Lil Brutto
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 453


View Profile
« Reply #93 on: June 07, 2011, 04:58:02 PM »

how many fucking times can studios screw this up before they finally realize YOU DON'T MESS WITH THE WORK OF A MASTER. all of the Once Upon a Time trilogy was screwed by the studios. sons of fucking bitches  Angry Angry Angry Angry Angry

What he said  Grin

Anyways, I received my BD and briefly viewed a few scenes. For the purists, they should have included a lossless mono soundtrack instead of a lossy DD mono track. However, the DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 track sounds really good.

The PQ is very nice. I'd like to compare it with the Mondo DVD with restored video in terms of color timing, etc. My region free DVD player broke down recently so the comparison will have to wait until I get a new one so I can view the Mondo DVD on my 46" LCD.

I presume the Italians will eventually release this version on BD. Then I can make an edit with the proper ending spliced onto the end of the English version.

Overall, this is still a great release despite the screwed up ending.

Logged

I was an honest farmer. Now I'm Lil Brutto!
drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8316

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #94 on: June 07, 2011, 05:17:34 PM »

The weird thing is if you watch the 1995 italian "long cut" they use another messed up ending that uses a "freeze frame" (referenced in the video watchdog article). Even the italians got it wrong. I wonder if the original italian dvd or vhs or laserdisc has the "proper" ending. Or if there's still a film print out there somewhere.


but aside from the opening scene, the Scorcese version is identical to the Paramount dvd?

Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
Jordan Krug
Bounty Killer
*****
Online Online

Posts: 566


Crazy bellringer was right....


View Profile
« Reply #95 on: June 07, 2011, 05:55:40 PM »

but aside from the opening scene, the Scorcese version is identical to the Paramount dvd?

Yes, I have not watched them side by side, but I am reasonably certain.

Logged
Jordan Krug
Bounty Killer
*****
Online Online

Posts: 566


Crazy bellringer was right....


View Profile
« Reply #96 on: June 07, 2011, 06:05:19 PM »

What he said  Grin

Anyways, I received my BD and briefly viewed a few scenes. For the purists, they should have included a lossless mono soundtrack instead of a lossy DD mono track. However, the DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 track sounds really good.

The PQ is very nice. I'd like to compare it with the Mondo DVD with restored video in terms of color timing, etc. My region free DVD player broke down recently so the comparison will have to wait until I get a new one so I can view the Mondo DVD on my 46" LCD.

I presume the Italians will eventually release this version on BD. Then I can make an edit with the proper ending spliced onto the end of the English version.

Overall, this is still a great release despite the screwed up ending.

That is, IF the italians release it with the proper ending. Their LAST version (the longer "what Leone intended" cut) was wrong...still the "freeze frame" ending

Logged
Lil Brutto
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 453


View Profile
« Reply #97 on: June 07, 2011, 09:39:23 PM »

That is, IF the italians release it with the proper ending. Their LAST version (the longer "what Leone intended" cut) was wrong...still the "freeze frame" ending

Hi Jordan,

I need some clarification because maybe I'm misinterpreting the article you scanned. How exactly is the film supposed to end? In the Italian DVDs, the "finale" score ends as you see Harmonica ride off in the distance with Cheyenne's body in tow. Then the frame freezes and the credits begin with Cheyenne's theme. It ends the same way in both the Mondo and CVC extended DVDs. I have the 1st release DVD by CVC as well but I'll have to check that later.

Interestingly, despite having different cuts of the film, the CVC and Mondo DVDs appear to be from the same source. The blemishes on the film are identical throughout. (Clearly, there was no further restoration of the video by Mondo despite their claims.)

Here's an example; see the white blotch on the right?

CVC extended DVD:


Mondo "restored" DVD:

« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 12:04:55 AM by Honest Farmer » Logged

I was an honest farmer. Now I'm Lil Brutto!
stanton
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2936



View Profile
« Reply #98 on: June 08, 2011, 02:06:41 AM »

As I understand it, there are three versions of the opening (waiting for the train)- 1. the original u.s. premiere cut before it was edited 2. the slightly trimmed down cut after paramount butchered the rest (which up to the Scorcese restoration was the cut we all know) and 3. the 1995 italian "long" cut which has even more footage than #1.

It's my belief that the new blu-ray cut restores 39 seconds to make it the opening from #1. People are saying Scorcese arbitrarily chose new shots to be included after looking at #3, but I think they just found an existing print of #1. and used that opening. (we don't have anything from the #1 cut to compare that to though, so I'm theorizing, but to me that makes the most logical sense - I can't see Scorcese making ANY decisions on Leone's behalf).

After reading the Watchdog article I'm sure that the German theatrical version (apart from the exit music) is the same as the Italian release version and the original US premiere . I have retained a TV version of this after I realised that there was something missing on the Paramount DVD. I had compared the versions and posted it already somewhere in this forum:

The first scene is in # 1 about 70 sec longer than # 2 (the Paramount) and #3 adds another 30 sec to it.

If Sorsese wanted to restore # 1, he has done only half of the job. And of course he should have skipped the Rising scene and restore the audio of the closing scene.

Logged

stanton
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2936



View Profile
« Reply #99 on: June 08, 2011, 06:06:17 AM »

That is, IF the italians release it with the proper ending. Their LAST version (the longer "what Leone intended" cut) was wrong...still the "freeze frame" ending


But that's a different freeze frame endiing. The freeze frame in the 177 min version comes at the same moment as the Paramount DVD fades into black.

The wrong freeze frame ending in one of the US versions comes before Harmonica comes back into the frame riding past with the dead body of Cheyenne on another horse. And the freeze frame was only used for one of the short versions to avoid confusion cause Cheyenne's death scene was cut.

Logged

Jordan Krug
Bounty Killer
*****
Online Online

Posts: 566


Crazy bellringer was right....


View Profile
« Reply #100 on: June 08, 2011, 06:57:56 AM »

Hi Jordan,

I need some clarification because maybe I'm misinterpreting the article you scanned. How exactly is the film supposed to end? In the Italian DVDs, the "finale" score ends as you see Harmonica ride off in the distance with Cheyenne's body in tow. Then the frame freezes and the credits begin with Cheyenne's theme. It ends the same way in both the Mondo and CVC extended DVDs. I have the 1st release DVD by CVC as well but I'll have to check that later.


The way the video watchdog article describes it, the credits roll over the shot of H and C riding off into the distance, the shot ends at the end of the finale music. It goes to black, the paramount logo comes up and then the reprise of Cheyanne's theme continues over black for 2:32 seconds.

So, the proper version will have NO freeze frame, and Cheyennes music should never be over picture of any kind, only black as "exit music". 


Logged
Jordan Krug
Bounty Killer
*****
Online Online

Posts: 566


Crazy bellringer was right....


View Profile
« Reply #101 on: June 08, 2011, 07:01:02 AM »

After reading the Watchdog article I'm sure that the German theatrical version (apart from the exit music) is the same as the Italian release version and the original US premiere . I have retained a TV version of this after I realised that there was something missing on the Paramount DVD. I had compared the versions and posted it already somewhere in this forum:

The first scene is in # 1 about 70 sec longer than # 2 (the Paramount) and #3 adds another 30 sec to it.

If Sorsese wanted to restore # 1, he has done only half of the job. And of course he should have skipped the Rising scene and restore the audio of the closing scene.


Ah, I stand corrected, thanks for the clarification. I did not have a version like that to compare it to. I wish it had been that simple but I guess now we have (4) different versions of the opening!!?

Logged
Jordan Krug
Bounty Killer
*****
Online Online

Posts: 566


Crazy bellringer was right....


View Profile
« Reply #102 on: June 08, 2011, 07:06:20 AM »

But that's a different freeze frame endiing. The freeze frame in the 177 min version comes at the same moment as the Paramount DVD fades into black.

The wrong freeze frame ending in one of the US versions comes before Harmonica comes back into the frame riding past with the dead body of Cheyenne on another horse. And the freeze frame was only used for one of the short versions to avoid confusion cause Cheyenne's death scene was cut.

Fair enough, the music is probably right, but the credits then roll too late and the Cheyenne music should be over black. Both are wrong anyways...although with the music playing out as it should this one is probably the least erroneous. 

Logged
Jordan Krug
Bounty Killer
*****
Online Online

Posts: 566


Crazy bellringer was right....


View Profile
« Reply #103 on: June 08, 2011, 08:39:31 AM »

These are the new additions to the Scorsese cut vs. the last U.S.A paramount dvd cut:

The Scorsese adds just two shots to the opening (before rising) and extends a third. After the train has arrived and the train guy throws the parcel off, there are a few shots, then Woody Strode smiles over at Jack Elam.

1. There is a NEW shot of Jack Elam smiling back
2. then a NEW shot of him drumming on his gun. A FLY buzzes around his hand. Smiley In the italian version we hear a fly buzz on this shot, here it's not there (or not as prevalent)
3. It then cuts back to the C.U. shot of Elam where he leaves frame although the beginning of that is EXTENDED and has him shaking his head before he motions to leave with a tilt of his head (and then leaves frame as in the U.S. cut).

This is similar to a sequence of shots in the extended Italian version except the long Italian version has an extra shot of the train, then an extra shot of Elam (before the holster tapping shot) in between those 3 shots.

The RISING scene now has a couple extended shots.

4. When Harmonica brings his arm over to sling it, the beginning of that shot is now extended to show him moving parts of his jacket around first.
5. The last shot of the scene is also extended -he puts his gun in the bag and then the extended shot holds on his boots walking off frame (the U.S. cut ends with him picking up his bag)

This is exactly how the rising scene plays out in the extended italian cut.

6. Just before the the CU shot of the father at the well, the daughter turns to react to the cicadas going quiet - her reaction is a second longer in the Scorsese cut (this seems odd but I checked it multiple times) The italian cut also has the extra second.
7. Paramount logo comes up 2 or 3 seconds later at the end of the Scorsese cut

Total new footage added : 19-21 seconds. (depending if you count the new black before the paramount logo at the end- which I am)

NO other differences from beginning to end, I checked the whole thing. So they must be counting the new title card at the beginning as part of the 39 seconds- it is 18 seconds including the black between it and the paramount logo. That puts the count at 39ish seconds (close enough to 39 to have it make sense I think - I did not do exact frame counts)

So really we got 19 seconds of new footage, not 39. Why that particular 19 seconds was chosen is a mystery to me.

***EDIT - the Scorsese cut also fixes (removes) the title overlap of "a sergio leone film" onto the shot of woody strode in the existing paramount version***

Stanton, what is the sequence with the new Jack Elam cuts in the german tv version - does it cut like the Scorsese cut as I described or does it have the additional P.O.V. of the train in between those cuts like the longer italian version?

« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 02:06:38 PM by Jordan Krug » Logged
Lil Brutto
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 453


View Profile
« Reply #104 on: June 08, 2011, 09:25:49 AM »

Great info, JK. We're a few steps closer to determining the differences between the 2 cuts.  Afro

Logged

I was an honest farmer. Now I'm Lil Brutto!
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 13 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Visit FISTFUL-OF-LEONE.COM

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.038 seconds with 19 queries.