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Author Topic: 'West' blu ray May 31  (Read 55984 times)
Jordan Krug
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« Reply #135 on: June 10, 2011, 06:14:43 AM »

There were widescreen versions on VHS, but I don't know if the theatrical cut was amongst them. But as I said there were widescreen versions on Pay TV without any logos (unlike the Free TV showings).

But in the end it is not very important from which source it came.

It could have also been a very early vhs that didn't correct aspect ratio, for instance I have one of those for thx1138 - comes in a "clamshell" big ugly plastic box, but the whole movie is in vertically stretched (4x3) widescreen.

Stanton when you are able to, obviously it would be great if you could check this version against your german tv cut..

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Jordan Krug
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« Reply #136 on: June 10, 2011, 06:28:00 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMdh71ngeoA

someone posted this link (I think it may have been somewhere on these boards a while back) and said that this is the "full" opening scene. can someone who has seen the Scorcese opening scene (and/or understands Italian) tell me if this version is indeed the Scorcese one? Thanks

This is the 177 min Italian version created in 1995. While it is the longest version available, (and fun to watch because of that) most would agree it's not exactly what Leone intended (as the origin of this cut is still a bit cloudy.) What Leone intended (and released in 1968) is (I personally believe) what I recently posted as links to a youtube german cut that uses a lot of these extra shots (but not all). If you compare the two "longer" versions of the opening, you'll see that the shots that *only* the Italian version has that the other versions don't are of little importance. (in my opinion)

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Lil Brutto
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« Reply #137 on: June 10, 2011, 07:51:28 AM »

Early German VHS releases used the German theatrical version, but I think for the Laserdisc the English version was used for the first time, and since then VHS re-releases used also the English version.

I was digging for more info and came across a discussion from 8 years ago. I used Google to imperfectly translate and one of the posts confirms what you say:

"The described CIC-VHS version (reissue) of it that is absolutely identical to the U.S. laser disc and the simultaneously published German laser disc from Philips / CIC. And it is this version ran just before the publication of the LD's also on Dutch television. It looks rather as if whether exactly this version is the international version and the German theatrical version of the unexplained reasons for this short scene Bronson (rising) was reduced at the beginning ..."

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« Reply #138 on: June 10, 2011, 12:33:08 PM »

I have just read it too.
There is another post which says that the Laserdisc is cut for 70 sec in the first scene. And that's what I have assumed. When the releases became digital, Paramount used one master for all worldwide, and that was their restored but faulty version from 1984. And since then all VHS releases in Germany were taken from this master.

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« Reply #139 on: June 10, 2011, 01:12:57 PM »

not sure why some of you seem to prefer the Rising scene not be included. Is it cuz a) you actually believe Leone did not want that scene included; b) you just think it is superfluous; or c) cuz it conflicts with you opposition to the stdwd theory  Tongue

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« Reply #140 on: June 10, 2011, 01:28:03 PM »

I think it's superfluous.

After watching the German theatrical cut on youtube, I think it just works better with the straight cut to the McBain's rifle and showing later on at the roadhouse that H survived.

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« Reply #141 on: June 10, 2011, 01:31:25 PM »

I know some people say the Rising scene is only necessary  if the trading post scene is cut. However, Leone shot the Rising scene for a reason (and I am sure the reason is NOT that he was expecting the trading post scene to be cut)

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Jordan Krug
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« Reply #142 on: June 10, 2011, 01:44:52 PM »

I wrote this in response to someone on the criterion board, but as it's relevant I thought I'd share it here...

Quote from: Nothing
Quote from: Lighthouse
If you take the 177 min version as proof, than you should also take it as proof for Leone wanting the first scene much longer.
This is assuming that Leone's print corresponded to the 177m rough cut - I don't think we can assume that.

But I think all of this basically comes back to the question of the titles. Were the optical English language titles on the current version created in 1969 or in the early 1980s? If we can answer that, the rest will probably fall into place.

The titles themselves do not appear over any unique shots in ANY version. That is to say, neither the german cut nor the 177 min italian cut has a title over a new shot that is not in the paramount cut. Of course, there are differences in placement within the frame (Claudia Cardinale credit appears on a different side of frame in german titles), and the italian 177 min has slightly different timings (Jack Elam title is over 2 shots instead of one). It might be that Paramount simply removed shots that didn't have titles on them, thus they didn't have to redo any opticals. Also because the sequence has no music, they would have been easy lifts to make.

There is one strange thing that could be evidence of tinkering in the 80's - the Paramount cut has an odd overlap from the first title (over black background-"a sergio leone film") into the next shot of Woody strode and his hat - the "sergio leone film" title continues over that shot for about two frames - which looks to me like a mistake. This exists in the paramount cut only- the italian and german differ by having a different shot altogether (Al mulloch) after that credit, but there is no overlap.

I don't know enough about optical printing to really lean one side or the other, but I'm doubtful the overlap on that shot was intentional, or that Paramount would create a new optical in 1969 just to do that..

***EDIT*** just checked and the overlap of "a sergio leone" film title over the shot of woody strode in the scorsese cut has been removed - looks like they noticed that too!


« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 02:13:25 PM by Jordan Krug » Logged
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« Reply #143 on: June 10, 2011, 01:46:29 PM »

I know some people say the Rising scene is only necessary  if the trading post scene is cut. However, Leone shot the Rising scene for a reason (and I am sure the reason is NOT that he was expecting the trading post scene to be cut)

It is mainly because I think teh film loses some of its narrative quality in the first 40 min because:

1. It is indeed superfluous and it is not very remarkable the way it is filmed. (But not a bad scene either)

2. Without the scene comes a direct cut from Woody Strode crushing down to the close-up of McBain's shotgun which then blazes. A beautiful cut to connect the 1st with the second scene and similar to the harsh cut from Fonda's shooting gun to the shrieking of the train which connects the 2nd with the 3rd scene.

3. Without the Rising scene you don't know what had exactly happened as it seems that all 4 which were introduced to us are dead or could be dead. And remember that at the end of the 2nd scene the whole McBain family, to which we were introduced for several minutes, got shot too. It is very daring and irritating that you don't know for over 20 min what had happened to Harmonica, and for even a much longer time what the film could be about. And I like this unusual way to tell a story very much.

4. Without the Rising scene the moment of Harmonica's 2nd appearance in the film which reveals that he is still alive (remember Bronson wasn't a star back then) is much more fascinating. When you for so long don't know what happened in the first scene the eerie Harmonica sound out of the dark and the thrown lamp which brings his face into the light is much more effective.

Believe me, if you have seen and enjoyed OUTW for 20 years without the Rising scene, it is very disappointing to see it now in. It destroys some of the greatness of the long and slow beginning. Somehow the including of this scene really bugs me.
Especially that I'm meanwhile very sure that it was never part of the original theatrical versions, and it is only there because Paramount made some mistakes, and because if once a scene becomes part of a film, it seems impossible to get rid of it again.

(And about the Ghost theory, I never understood why there should be a difference for this theory with or without this scene.)



« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 01:53:58 PM by stanton » Logged

Jordan Krug
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« Reply #144 on: June 10, 2011, 01:53:51 PM »

1. It is indeed superfluous and it is not very remarkable the way it is filmed. (But not a bad scene either)

2. Without the scene comes a direct cut from Woody Strode crushing down to the close-up of McBain's shotgun which then blazes. A beautiful cut to connect the 1st with the second scene and similar to the harsh cut from Fonda's shooting gun to the shrieking of the train which connects the 2nd with the 3rd scene.

3. Without the Rising scene you don't know what had exactly happened as it seems that all 4 which were introduced to us are dead or could be dead. And remember that at the end of the 2nd scene the whole McBain family, to which we were introduced for several minutes, got shot too. It is very daring and irritating that you don't know for over 20 min what had happened to Harmonica. And I like this unusual way to tell story very much.

4. Without the Rising scene the moment of Harmonica's 2nd appearance in the film which reveals that he is still alive (remember Bronson wasn't a star back then) is much more fascinating. When you for so long don't know what happened in the first scene the eerie Harmonica sound out of the dark and the thrown lamp which brings his face into the light is much more effective.

Believe me, if you have seen and enjoyed OUTW for 20 years without the Rising scene, it is very disappointing to see it now in. It destroys some of the greatness of the long and slow beginning. Somehow the including of this scene really bugs me.
Especially that I'm meanwhile very sure that it was never part of the original theatrical versions, and it is only there because Paramount made some mistakes, and because if once a scene became part of a film, it seems impossible to get rid of it.

(And about the Ghost theory, I never understood why there should be a difference for this theory with or without this scene.)



This is a great, well-thought out explanation. As Cheyenne (and Monco before that) said..."bravo". It also helps that I've now seen it in context without (on that youtube clip I posted). Although I still think it's weird that it's referenced (in one book only I admit) as being present in "Leone's cut", and I like the scene on it's own...but it would be a better and more (Leone) accurate film without it.


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Jordan Krug
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« Reply #145 on: June 10, 2011, 03:35:14 PM »


Just for another kick in the version teeth...I have a german 8mm print of small selected scenes from OATITW (unfortunately it's so hodge podge edit wise it's not really useful for reference) from the 70's...and its titles in the opening scene are in a different spot and size within the frame yet again (different from italian, german or english). Because it's officially licensed, I suppose they must have had access to a version with no titles and perhaps added their own to fit within the 8mm space, but they are animated...so maybe not. Unfortunately it only features these three shots from the opening.

Anyways, check it out here:

http://jordankrug.com/Screening_Room/leone2/west8mmtitles.mov

I also have some 8mm films of F.O.D. and F.A.F.D.M if anyone is interested in seeing them for fun...

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Lil Brutto
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« Reply #146 on: June 10, 2011, 04:41:08 PM »

I also have some 8mm films of F.O.D. and F.A.F.D.M if anyone is interested in seeing them for fun...

YES!

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« Reply #147 on: June 11, 2011, 12:21:39 PM »

Here's the torrent link for the German theatrical cut on youtube: CLICK HERE

« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 09:59:44 AM by Honest Farmer » Logged

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« Reply #148 on: June 12, 2011, 03:08:47 AM »



Stanton when you are able to, obviously it would be great if you could check this version against your german tv cut..

OK, I have solved my Adobe problems.

Of course it is the complete German version for the first scene. No further cuts.

I'm not sure if the 30 sec we got more in the 177 min version will make it drag, but I doubt that much people who compare the Paramount and the German version will then prefer the short Paramount one.
With the Rising scene it is different, now that all have seen it as part of the film, I'm sure many would complain if further DVDs or BRs won't have it. Even if imo superfluous, people will like the scene how it is shot and will prefer it as part of the film. Not all who are used to it, but many.

But at the moment I think that we will maybe never get another version than the Paramount and the long Italian one.

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Jordan Krug
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« Reply #149 on: June 13, 2011, 11:39:59 AM »

Here's the torrent link for the German theatrical cut on youtube: CLICK HERE

I couldn't get any seeds for this, were you able to download the movie file?

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