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Author Topic: Alternate opening  (Read 21331 times)
stanton
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« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2012, 02:58:24 AM »

people like you and cigar joe seem to have little problem with (most of) the scenes that were cut from GBU -- there were some that you are even unhappy were restored. Nothing like the way cigar joe (and some others) whines about that alternate opening  Wink

Not really

That fake opening scene is simply badly made, but it is great that I was able to see it. At least it was fun.

The cave scene was never part of the Italian version, and it is better so. I'm also glad that I can watch it, but it should be in the bonus section of the DVD. I also would like to see the Socorro scene, but not as part of the film.

I prefer GBU in the longer version, but still there ain't a weak moment in the 161 min version, while there are 2 more short scenes in the 175 min version which I call superfluous. The film's narrative don't needs them.
So I prefer the longer version to the shorter version, but without the cave scene (Leone didn't put it in when other scenes were restored for the Italian version in the 80s) and these 2 other scenes it would be for me the perfect version.

But every criticism of a film is an asking for a better version. Like if someone says they should have chosen a better actor for a certain role, or the score is not that good, or a film is too long, or there shouldn't be a happy end etc.

Btw, the problem with the longer GBU version is indeed that the film simply gets in danger to become overlong.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 03:01:48 AM by stanton » Logged

drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2012, 11:13:14 AM »

Not really

That fake opening scene is simply badly made, but it is great that I was able to see it. At least it was fun.

The cave scene was never part of the Italian version, and it is better so. I'm also glad that I can watch it, but it should be in the bonus section of the DVD. I also would like to see the Socorro scene, but not as part of the film.

I prefer GBU in the longer version, but still there ain't a weak moment in the 161 min version, while there are 2 more short scenes in the 175 min version which I call superfluous. The film's narrative don't needs them.
So I prefer the longer version to the shorter version, but without the cave scene (Leone didn't put it in when other scenes were restored for the Italian version in the 80s) and these 2 other scenes it would be for me the perfect version.

But every criticism of a film is an asking for a better version. Like if someone says they should have chosen a better actor for a certain role, or the score is not that good, or a film is too long, or there shouldn't be a happy end etc.

Btw, the problem with the longer GBU version is indeed that the film simply gets in danger to become overlong.

I do agree that the cave scene in GBU is useless. But without it, you never know that those men are Tuco's. I'm not sure if the next scene would seem confusing without that cave scene. (The first time I watched the movie, I felt that the first half was way too slow, and almost shut it off. I'm glad I didn't  Wink )

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stanton
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« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2012, 12:17:27 PM »

No, its not confusing.

You see Tuco sending them up the staircase to Blondie's room. I never needed anything else to know about these miserable 3.

At this moment of his career Leone was in danger to become to circumstantial.

All these additional scenes of OUTW, which were in teh screenplay, would have damaged the film considerably

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« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2012, 01:15:51 PM »

No, its not confusing.

You see Tuco sending them up the staircase to Blondie's room. I never needed anything else to know about these miserable 3.

At this moment of his career Leone was in danger to become to circumstantial.

All these additional scenes of OUTW, which were in teh screenplay, would have damaged the film considerably


additional scenes of OUATITW?  What are you talking about? the scene where the sheriff's deputies beat up Harmonica?

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stanton
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« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2012, 05:07:20 PM »

That one and other stuff.
Some of these scenes filmed, some weren't

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« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2012, 01:11:57 PM »

Indeed it is Afro

and by the time Joe had gotten from the prison to San Miguel, his horse had turned into a mule, his poncho had been cut in half, and the screen had gone from 2:35:1 to 4:3  Grin (actually, I guess the whole movie was cut to 4:3 to be shown in fullscreen on tv, eh?)

The full length poncho down to his ankles looks utterly ridiculous....wonder if it still exists somewhere.......must be worth an absolute fortu....worthless...LOL Grin Grin Grin

Also, anyone able to work out where the prison would be, if San Miguel was three days ride south, just over the border?
and another thing..

Did Joe or Blondie or Manco ever tie the holster to his leg or is it ever seen tied to his leg?...dont remember mortimer tying it when he used Manco's gun in FFOD?

ICE

« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 01:19:19 PM by iceman » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2012, 07:52:43 AM »

the cave scene ....without it, you never know that those men are Tuco's. I'm not sure if the next scene would seem confusing without that cave scene.

I saw this at 15 (in 1968), felt even then it was obvious that they worked for Tuco, no issue with that.

We all know that TV/film bad guys can recruit thugs at the drop of a hat !!!

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« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2012, 10:56:17 AM »

the one scene that  I'll never understand how it was deleted is the one with Angel Eyes visiting the Confederate fort and finding out that Bill Carson will probably wind up at Betterville.

When you watched the film without that scene, what did you think when you suddenly saw Angel Eyes as the lieutenant at Betterville? That it was the greatest coincidence in the history of cinema?

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« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2012, 11:20:02 AM »

No, its not confusing.

At this moment of his career Leone was in danger to become to circumstantial.

All these additional scenes of OUTW, which were in teh screenplay, would have damaged the film considerably


I am not sure what other scenes there were in OUATITW.

As for Leone, I think he used many scenes for their own sake, not because they moved the story along in any way.

For example, in the blu-ray commentary on GBU, Frayling says that when people wanted to remove some of the scenes in the desert where Tuco is torturing Blondie, Leone objected cuz he thought the cinematography of those scenes was so beautiful, it was shot like the great surrealist painters.... So if your main interest with scenes is moving along the narrative, much of the first half of GBU is useless. But it seems as if Leone wanted each scene to be enjoyed on its own (like a TV episode? [NOT in a bad way]), without a great concern for the narrative; enjoy each scene on its own, and eventually a story will come together...

Since the first time I saw GBU, I don't think I have ever sat through it again straight, beginning to end, except when I did it to watch the commentaries. Maybe I feel too much of the first half drags on unnecessarily. Watching it now, there is really no reason for me to sit through, for example, the scene of Tuco in the gun shop, the first scene where Angel Eyes kills the former soldier, much of the desert scenes, etc. But I have watched the second half of the movie straight -- say, from the time Blondie and Tuco arrive in Betterville -- many, many times.

Perhaps I'd feel differently about the shorter version, which I have never seen. I recently bought the dvd of the shorter version (which has the deleted scenes in the special features, in Italian with English subtitles. I got the used dvd dirt cheap on eBay.) The next time I watch the movie, I'll watch that version, and see how I feel about it. One big problem with that version is the picture quality -- the tape looks screwed up, and they didn't do any good re-mastering for that dvd, like they did for the Special Edition.


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« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2012, 12:23:05 PM »

the one scene that  I'll never understand how it was deleted is the one with Angel Eyes visiting the Confederate fort and finding out that Bill Carson will probably wind up at Betterville.

When you watched the film without that scene, what did you think when you suddenly saw Angel Eyes as the lieutenant at Betterville? That it was the greatest coincidence in the history of cinema?

No, I always was sure he was there on purpose because he was looking for Bill Carson.
The logical next question is then how he managed to become a Sergeant, and how he managed it to be sent to Betterville instead to the front still isn't answered. But that is also an irrelevant question. I may find easily an explanation (like he has bribed someone), but as it is not important for the film, it is not worth spending the time a thought needs.

The first question (why is he in Betterville) is a typical one which does not need necessarily an explanation in the film itself, as everybody can answer it by himself, and if you have to find an answer by yourself, then, in the film's inner logic, the "on purpose" answer is the only one which makes sense.





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« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2012, 03:29:03 PM »

I believe I saw that point discussed somewhere else here: Angel Eyes was probably a retired officer in the army before the war, so that when it became useful for him to be stationed in Betterville to try to find Bill Carson, he simply re-enlisted, and requested to serve in Betterville.

Once Angel Eyes finds out that it is beneficial to be in Betterville, it doesn't seem to difficult to imagine how he got there (if you assume the possibility that he was an officer before the war). But if you don't have the scene with Angel Eyes finding out that Bill Carson will probably wind up in Betterville if he is still alive, then there seems to be little to justify why Angel Eyes would now be a Union officer in Betterville, other than the most insane coincidence in the history of cinema

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« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2012, 05:04:54 AM »

Is there any hint in the film that he was a retired officer? And he's only a Sergeant anyway.



Once Angel Eyes finds out that it is beneficial to be in Betterville, it doesn't seem to difficult to imagine how he got there (if you assume the possibility that he was an officer before the war). But if you don't have the scene with Angel Eyes finding out that Bill Carson will probably wind up in Betterville if he is still alive, then there seems to be little to justify why Angel Eyes would now be a Union officer in Betterville, other than the most insane coincidence in the history of cinema

Still, I don't need the scene for this information. When I first saw GBU I had no doubt that he was only in the prison camp cause he somehow had assumed that it was his best chance to find Carson. If the information, which Sentenza gets in this scene, would be the only justification for this scene, than it would be indeed a weak scene for being too long and telling me things I don't need. The story of GBU always ran smoothly for me without this scene, in 10 or 15 viewings before I saw the other scenes. Or read about them.

This scene is more important for the rhythm of the film, than for its content. And it is for me also important that it is only one of two scenes in which Sentenza is presented more human.

The story of GBU is anyway less important for the film than the way Leone tells this story. Like in all Leone film.
And exactly for its storytelling ability is GBU a nearly flawless masterpiece. And is slightly better in the longer version (minus the cave scene), even if there are a few snippets now the film does not really need.
 
Well, D&D you think the film has its flaws in the first half. I think it is perfect in the first half, as it is in the second.

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« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2012, 08:07:22 AM »

When you watched the film without that scene, what did you think when you suddenly saw Angel Eyes as the lieutenant at Betterville? That it was the greatest coincidence in the history of cinema?

Nah, just figured Angel Eyes bumped off a Union sergeant, took his uniform (like they did in Wizard of Oz).  Good thing the seargeant's outfit included a Mortimer-like cape !!

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Martin K
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« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2013, 12:44:20 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppZuqec9lq0

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« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2013, 12:28:55 PM »

Did Joe or Blondie or Manco ever tie the holster to his leg or is it ever seen tied to his leg?...dont remember mortimer tying it when he used Manco's gun in FFOD?

We don't see the good Colonel tie it down, and I can't recall ever seeing Clint ever tie it down. I also noticed that the gun was wrong. In the "alternate opening" the barrel is much too long and it doesn't have the iconic silver rattlesnake grips from Rawhide.

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