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Author Topic: Cheyenne breakout  (Read 5606 times)
El_Chuncho
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« on: May 04, 2011, 01:07:34 PM »

Amigos and Senoritas___________
I think this may have been discussed or resolved previously but.....

At what point did Cheyenne get shot?

Was it:
a.) as his hombres broke him out of the train en route to Yuma jail? (in which case, does that mean that Morton's train was transporting him?)
or b.) after being rescued from a different train. After which him and his gang head to Morton's (we see his gang dead outside Morton's de-railed choo-choo, Aldo Sambrell amongst them.)

This also makes me wonder if there were further scenes cut from this film along with the Harmonica beating.
I actually like it the way the film's edited even if that is the case, every time I watch this or any other Leone film I notice something else and/or ask another question of it....the magic of cinema Afro

Anyway....any thoughts???

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dave jenkins
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2011, 02:47:23 PM »

I believe it's c), during the shoot-out with the gang on Morton's train (which was different from the one transporting Cheyenne to Yuma; Aldo and the boys busted Cheyenne out of custody, then the gang went to Morton's train for payback; at least, I think that's the way it goes).

I think this was scripted but never shot (rather than shot and deleted). It's been a long time since I've been over this topic; maybe somebody else has a clearer take (Groggy?).

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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2011, 03:28:18 PM »

Makes sense.....
I just remembered that only 2 of Cheyenne's gang buy tickets for the train.

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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2011, 03:58:17 PM »

Makes sense.....
I just remembered that only 2 of Cheyenne's gang buy tickets for the train.


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cigar joe
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2011, 05:28:01 PM »

Yep what DJ said.

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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 10:13:44 AM »

Makes sense.....
I just remembered that only 2 of Cheyenne's gang buy tickets for the train.

The rest may have ridden up ahead to a convenient bend in the track (or whatever).

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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2011, 06:05:51 AM »

The rest may have ridden up ahead to a convenient bend in the track (or whatever).

Yeah, once the two henchmen freed Cheyenne, they'd need guys to be waiting with horses for them...

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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2011, 01:31:17 AM »

I was initially led to believe that it was Morton's train that was supposed to bring Cheyenne to Yuma, and from which he and his gang attempted the escape.

But i don't think that is possible. I believe Morton's train has 2 cars (aside from the conductor/engine car), at least one of which is Morton's fancy private car. The train comes and goes as it pleases, ie. whenever Morton (or Frank!) pulls the cord. I don't think it makes sense that there is a regular passenger car there; would a CEO have a coach passenger section in back of his private jet? Therefore, as you all seem to be saying above: Cheyenne was taken to Yuma on a different train; his men helped him escape that train, and from there they went to Morton's train where they had a big gunfight....

HOWEVER, I just realized something:  I don't think Cheyenne had a problem with Morton himself; Cheyenne was only after Frank and his men, who had set him up to have him accused of murder. Cheyenne only sneaks onto Morton's train earlier in the film and shoots it up because Frank and his men are on the train, not cuz Cheyenne has any problem with Morton himself. Therefore, why would it make sense for Cheyenne and his gang -- after breaking free of the different train that was supposed to take him to Yuma -- to ride to Morton's train and have it out with Morton???
 The only possible answer I can think of is that Cheyenne believes that Frank is on that train; he does not know that Morton has set up Frank to be killed and that Frank wouldn't be riding on Morton's train anymore. (Although he knew about the auction that was fixed by Frank, Cheyenne did not realize that Frank was now attempting to be a businessman himself and therefore no longer working for Morton...) So Cheyenne believes Frank is riding on the train with Morton, so he and his men ride up to the train with guns blazing in an attempt to kill Frank, without ever realizing that Frank was not on the train....Huh


« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 05:16:05 AM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2011, 03:47:56 AM »

you got it  Afro

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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2011, 05:15:13 AM »

you got it  Afro

so you believe that:

a) Cheyenne was taken to Yuma on a different train from which he escaped;
b) then he and his men went after Morton's train because of their mistaken belief that Frank was on it;
c) although Cheyenne knew that Frank staged the fixed auction at Flagstone, he believed Frank was acting on behalf of Morton, and didn't realize that he had gone off to become a businessman on his own?

« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 05:24:09 AM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2011, 05:21:34 AM »

Yes Morton had a private train. and Cheyenne didn't know about the falling out between Morton and Frank.

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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2011, 05:27:20 AM »

Yes Morton had a private train. and Cheyenne didn't know about the falling out between Morton and Frank.

but Cheyenne and Harmonica were in cahoots, and Harmonica knew; wouldn't he have mentioned this very important fact to Cheyenne?

Perhaps you can answer that Harmonica didn't realize that Frank was working for himself and not Morton until their scene in the bar and the subsequent shootout following the auction; by that point, Cheyenne had already been taken away so there was no way Harmonica could inform him of that...?

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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2011, 02:46:26 PM »

but Cheyenne and Harmonica were in cahoots, and Harmonica knew; wouldn't he have mentioned this very important fact to Cheyenne?

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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2011, 06:55:10 PM »

You need to remember that Morton's train never moves from where Harmonica stopped at it after Cheyenne rescued him. Morton went to the Navajo cliffs after Frank came back, and Frank had his gang take Morton back to his train and hold him prisoner. There's no reason to believe the train ever moved, let alone went into Flagstone and transported Cheyenne as well.

Also Cheyenne explicitly says "Mr. Choo-Choo" is the one who shot him.

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drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2011, 07:26:12 PM »

You need to remember that Morton's train never moves from where Harmonica stopped at it after Cheyenne rescued him. Morton went to the Navajo cliffs after Frank came back, and Frank had his gang take Morton back to his train and hold him prisoner. There's no reason to believe the train ever moved, let alone went into Flagstone and transported Cheyenne as well.

Also Cheyenne explicitly says "Mr. Choo-Choo" is the one who shot him.

1. yeah there is no doubt that Cheyenne and his gang died in a shootout with Morton. I was just wondering why after fleeing the train that was taking him to Yuma, Cheyenne and his gang went after Morton; Cheyenne never had a problem with Morton himself... I guess the answer is that presumably Cheyenne was actually going after Frank, whom he erroneously believed was still on the train with Morton.

2. I just had thought of another question: Who were those men that were dead alongside the train when Frank showed up? I do not think they were all Cheyenne's men; (besides, no way could Morton himself have killed all of those guys). So it must have been some men Morton had with him. However, all of Frank's men that had been guarding Morton had by now been killed in the shootout in Flagstone. And we never see Morton himself with any men, other than Frank's gang. So there shouldn't have been any other men with Morton when Cheyenne and his gang showed up. So who were all those men that were dead on the tracks???



« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 07:34:52 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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