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Author Topic: ZWEI GLORREICHE HALUNKEN 35mm screening  (Read 14620 times)
Lil Brutto
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« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2014, 05:18:56 PM »



Articles in chronological order:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s24gbuitalo.html

http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s90leonerev.html

http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s745GBU.html

http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s1139gbu.html

http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s2331leon.html

http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s2907gbu.html

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stanton
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« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2014, 02:10:38 AM »

Thanks, I already found most of them, but not all.

This passage says that the restoration in 2002 was not only done from the original Techniscope negative, but that they also used a "good 35mm American dupe negative": 

"Film-wise, much of GBU was rebuilt from the ground up. With a copy of the full Italian version and a Techniscope negative, MGM archivist John Kirk engaged the film restoration company Triage for the film work. They rematched most of GBU by eye and reprinted a new 35mm 'scope conversion negative. That process is covered in one of the documentaries on the disc but what isn't made clear there is that the negative supplied from Italy had flaws. For some sections of the film it was decided to fall back on a good 35mm American dupe negative instead. You can see some of the problems in the restored scenes: mottling in the sky when Lee Van Cleef arrives at the ruined Rebel fort; yellow staining in the new scene where Tuco and Blondie ride a wagon through a battlefield. "

And this dupe negative (with Italian audio only) must contain the complete version as is was also used for some of the new scenes. And was then most likely already used for the 1998 DVD, which then explains why there are all these short segments formerly not part of the 161 min versions, which turns the 161 min into a 162 min version. And from this negative from the vaults of UA also the "new" scenes were then taken for the bonus section of the DVD.
And we also must assume that from this negative the torture scene still was taken, cause the differently cut Italian torture scenes would cause problems with the English dub.


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drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2014, 01:59:33 PM »

I'm not sure if Savant is referring to the SLWB when he says people are bashing John Kirk for the yellowing of GBU, but that is actually one thing I haven't seen people here blame Kirk for.

The yellow seems to be a trend for all Leone movies now (including OUATIA, which is not distributed by MGM/Fox); the yellowing definitely seems to be an Italian thing. IF the yellowing of all these Leone movies really all stems from that one comment by the camera assistant on GBU that Leone wanted a yellow look, that would be astoundingly insane of these Italian "restoration experts."

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« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2014, 03:22:16 PM »

But calling Kirk a jerk without knowing anything substantial about him has happened here though. Wink

I'm sure that Leone wanted a slight yellow look for the landscape of his westerns, but the actual Blu overdoes it a bit. The landscape looks indeed more westernish, but it hurts all the other colors with some bad results.

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« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2014, 05:12:49 PM »

But calling Kirk a jerk without knowing anything substantial about him has happened here though. Wink

who says it's without knowing anything about him?

The reason I've called Kirk a jerk is cuz of his own words about GBU. I can't speak for anyone else. But I have called him a jerk for A) including the Cave scene despite admitting that Leone took it out, because HE (Kirk) decided it was "jarring" to see the three Mexican gunmen without knowing how Tuco recruited them, and justifying it by saying well, it was once shown at the Italian premiere - again, even though he admitted that Leone took it out; and B) for changing the gunshots, again cuz he decided it wouldn't fit with his new audio, and not giving any option for the old ones.

Using the guy's own comments, that's not insubstantial.

BTW, it happens to be that I think Savant is the one human being involved in movies that I disagree most with in the world. I mean, I have virtually never read or heard a word he says that I agree with. It's incredible how anytime I read an article or listen to a video he makes, within two minutes I already disagree with like 5 things. And btw, his piece on the bonus features of the MGM DVD of DYS is so wrong, as discussed in these two threads http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=5936.0 and http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10181.0
So, when I hear Savant defend Kirk, it just makes me more confident of my dislike for Kirk. If he had bashed Kirk, I'd be second-guessing myself for my own bashing of Kirk. I mean, maybe I am just so incredibly wrong about everything a possibility I am not discounting, but it's either me or Savant, cuz I couldn't imagine myself ever disagreeing with a human being about movies more than that guy. (I am not disagreeing with Savant on this particular point that Kirk wasn't involved in the yellowing - as I said in my previous post, that seems to be a trend from the Italians.)

« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 03:57:11 AM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2014, 08:49:21 PM »

I'm not sure if Savant is referring to the SLWB when he says people are bashing John Kirk for the yellowing of GBU,

Quite possibly. He's definitely familiar with this site.

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stanton
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« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2014, 02:41:23 AM »

who says it's without knowing anything about him?

The reason I've called Kirk a jerk is cuz of his own words about GBU. I can't speak for anyone else. But I have called him a jerk for A) including the Cave scene despite admitting that Leone took it out, because HE (Kirk) decided it was "jarring" to see the three Mexican gunmen without knowing how Tuco recruited them, and justifying it by saying well, it was once shown at the Italian premiere - again, even though he admitted that Leone took it out; and B) for changing the gunshots, again cuz he decided it wouldn't fit with his new audio, and not giving any option for the old ones.

Using the guy's own comments, that's not insubstantial.


As I said nothing substantial.
The reasoning behind the inclusion of the cave scene is more complex, as it was mainly legitimated by what Grimaldi said about it. In the interview with Kirk it seems that he had some doubts about it but Grimaldi insisted. Of course these might not be every reason, and he probably does not mention the commercial background of having an unseen scene in a well known cult film.

Whatever, he made 2 decisions which were wrong for you (and me and many others), but you ignore everything he did for the film, and that was a huge and expensive restoration, which he surely could have become cheaper and easier by using that dupe negative which he already owned.
And then if he thinks that the cave scene is good for the film, and the 5.1. audio is better than anything heard before, than it is still his opinion, one you must not agree with, but should respect. Unless you know more about Kirk than I or others here. You must not love him, but disrespect him and despise him without knowing much of him is not ok for me.
As far as I know I have the impression that he tries to do a lot for films which wouldn't have been done without him. Doing things always means that mistakes are possible.

And btw, and you are excused, cause as a lawyer you cannot know this, but some use the principle innocent until proven guilty (in dubio pro reo as the wisenheimer says).

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« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2014, 04:01:09 AM »


And btw, and you are excused, cause as a lawyer you cannot know this, but some use the principle innocent until proven guilty (in dubio pro reo as the wisenheimer says).

is this a court of law? should I call witnesses and allow Kirk's lawyers the right to cross-examination? for God's sake, this is a movie forum. I can have whatever opinion I want. I'm not sending Kirk to prison. "Innocent till proven guilty" when we're discussing movie preferences? take it easy.

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« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2014, 04:19:33 AM »

As I said nothing substantial.
The reasoning behind the inclusion of the cave scene is more complex, as it was mainly legitimated by what Grimaldi said about it. In the interview with Kirk it seems that he had some doubts about it but Grimaldi insisted. Of course these might not be every reason, and he probably does not mention the commercial background of having an unseen scene in a well known cult film.

Whatever, he made 2 decisions which were wrong for you (and me and many others), but you ignore everything he did for the film, and that was a huge and expensive restoration, which he surely could have become cheaper and easier by using that dupe negative which he already owned.
And then if he thinks that the cave scene is good for the film, and the 5.1. audio is better than anything heard before, than it is still his opinion, one you must not agree with, but should respect. Unless you know more about Kirk than I or others here. You must not love him, but disrespect him and despise him without knowing much of him is not ok for me.
As far as I know I have the impression that he tries to do a lot for films which wouldn't have been done without him. Doing things always means that mistakes are possible.

And btw, and you are excused, cause as a lawyer you cannot know this, but some use the principle innocent until proven guilty (in dubio pro reo as the wisenheimer says).

the main problem is that Kirk didn't offer options. If he thought the movie would be better with new gunshots or without the English original mono, then let hi offer new options in addition to the original ones. But he didn't offer any such option on his extended DVD. He is trying to impose his will on another artist's work. There is no excuse for that. Say what you will about the Cave scene, whatever, I can just click "Next chapter" on my remote when it comes up. And btw, I am happy that Kirk re-recorded Eastwood/Wallach in 2003 - if people don't like those recordings and would rather watch the Italian audio version of those scenes with English subtitles, they have the OPTION to do so. That's the point - give the viewer the option and let him/her decide how he/she wants to view it. But not offering those audio options with the mono and original gunshots, that is Kirk deciding to impose his will on another artist's work he decided the artwork will be better with his "improvements," and he doesn't offer the option of not using said "improvements" - that is unforgiveable.

RE: "Innocent until proven guilty" is this a court of law? should I call witnesses and allow Kirk's lawyers the right to cross-examination? for God's sake, this is a movie forum. I'm not sending Kirk to prison. "Innocent till proven guilty" when we're discussing movie preferences? if I'm in an art museum and see a painting and say, "This artist sucks," should I first have to call him up and allow him a hearing in which to defend himself? Take it easy. This is a movie forum. We're having fun here. At least we should be.  Wink

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« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2014, 05:27:01 AM »

Unfortunately you often don't sound like you have fun.

You don't send him to prison, yes, but you sound like you would do if younhave the power.

is this a court of law? should I call witnesses and allow Kirk's lawyers the right to cross-examination? for God's sake, this is a movie forum. I can have whatever opinion I want. I'm not sending Kirk to prison. "Innocent till proven guilty" when we're discussing movie preferences? take it easy.


Court of law? This is about simple rules of behaviour not about laws.

And this is about you not taking it easy. I take it easy, otherwise I would have written this long ago. I never take art too serious, even if it is serious (if you can follow me)
I don't like some of Kirk's or MGM's decisions either, but I discuss them, maybe mourn a little bit about them, but I don't flip out.

Unless you like to read insults about you in other forums, you shouldn't insult people here either. Which does not mean that we have to be too friendly, or can't make some jokes, but I don't like all this sucker, asshole, jerk, idiot etc statements of which the net is full. It is not only here of course.

And it is mostly not the artist who sucks, but only his work.

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« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2014, 06:21:34 AM »

 Grin

John Jerk is the devil himself.  Evil

No further questions, Your Honor.


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Lil Brutto
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« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2014, 11:19:04 AM »

So...this is going nowhere. Can we get back on topic?

I linked to Glenn Erickson's articles NOT for his reviews (I don't think I've ever read any of them) but for his understanding of what elements were used for the 1998 DVD and subsequent "extended English language" edition. He worked in MGM's home release dept at the time of the 98 DVD so he has the knowledge.

If anyone has an old recording of a French TV presentation let me know.

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« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2014, 02:21:01 PM »

Drink, you are my hero ....

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« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2014, 02:22:13 PM »

So...this is going nowhere. Can we get back on topic?

I linked to Glenn Erickson's articles NOT for his reviews (I don't think I've ever read any of them) but for his understanding of what elements were used for the 1998 DVD and subsequent "extended English language" edition. He worked in MGM's home release dept at the time of the 98 DVD so he has the knowledge.


Ok, and your conclusion is?

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« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2014, 02:55:32 PM »

The totality of evidence shows the "revisionism" with respect to the English language version began while Glenn Erickson was still working for MGM. That is, the 1998 DVD is not the "International Cut" as shown during the first theatrical release in the late 60s. In North America, the IC can be found on the 1983/1990/1993 LDs (and I presume their respective releases on VHS). We're still piecing together the information from other countries such as Spain, Germany and France. We've been focusing on any official releases or TV presentations before the mid-90's where they were more likely to be sourced from a theatrical print. So far we've confirmed your 80's German TV capture and the Spanish filmax DVD are the IC. It would be nice to have confirmation that the French release was also the IC. We'd need an early TV recording to confirm this, which may be a long shot. We got lucky with you, Stanton.  Afro

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