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Author Topic: ZWEI GLORREICHE HALUNKEN 35mm screening  (Read 14718 times)
drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2014, 03:44:52 PM »

The totality of evidence shows the "revisionism" with respect to the English language version began while Glenn Erickson was still working for MGM. That is, the 1998 DVD is not the "International Cut" as shown during the first theatrical release in the late 60s. In North America, the IC can be found on the 1983/1990/1993 LDs (and I presume their respective releases on VHS). We're still piecing together the information from other countries such as Spain, Germany and France. We've been focusing on any official releases or TV presentations before the mid-90's where they were more likely to be sourced from a theatrical print. So far we've confirmed your 80's German TV capture and the Spanish filmax DVD are the IC. It would be nice to have confirmation that the French release was also the IC. We'd need an early TV recording to confirm this, which may be a long shot. We got lucky with you, Stanton.  Afro

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that different people may be using the term "international cut" differently.
Do you mean "international" as opposed to Italian - i.e., you mean American when you say "international"? You mean the 161-minute version shown in US theaters on original release?

You are saying that the 1998 MGM DVD is in fact not the version shown in US theaters on original release?



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« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2014, 04:41:50 PM »

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that different people may be using the term "international cut" differently.
Do you mean "international" as opposed to Italian - i.e., you mean American when you say "international"? You mean the 161-minute version shown in US theaters on original release?

In the late 60's, the "International Cut" is what was shown in theaters outside of Italy (e.g. US, Canada, Britain, Germany, France and Spain). The IC never included the Italian language only scenes that were redubbed in English in the early 2000's and had its own version of the Tuco torture scene. For censorship reasons the IC was trimmed down even further in several countries but it was still the IC. The US had the longest (161 min) version of the IC.


You are saying that the 1998 MGM DVD is in fact not the version shown in US theaters on original release?

That's exactly what I'm saying.

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drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2014, 05:01:21 PM »

okay, I think you are using the term "international cut" differently than other people use it. maybe I am wrong.

but the version shown in the US and the version shown in UK were different. According to Frayling, the US version was 161 mins. while the UK version was 148 mins - which means it was missing 13 mins. in addition to what was cut from the US version. Several scenes that appeared in US did not appear in UK (Frayling points out those scenes in the BRD commentary), one of them is the Tuco-Gunshop scene.

so, I believe your implication that the same version was shown in US and UK is incorrect. I can't speak about other territories.

anyway, what you are referring to as the "international cut" is, I believe, what most people on the SLWB have referred to as the "US version." Please correct me if I am wrong, but this isn't just semantics - we have to make sure we are on the same page as far as terminology.

Anyway, so you are saying the 1998 MGM DVD is different than the US theatrical version - do you know yet the exact differences or are you still trying to figure them out?

And if you are trying to figure out the theatrical version from what was shown on tv - how can you be sure that the TV versions would have been the same as the theatrical versions? One example: in Red River, the theatrical version (with Walter Brennan narrating; and a shorter final fight between Wayne and Clift) is different than the version shown on TV all these years (with no narration, but titles written in a book; also a longer fight between Wayne and Clift). The TV version was the one available on DVD all these years - until the new Criterion Collection BRD boxset was just released.
Point is, can you be sure that the version shown on TV would have been the same as the one shown in theaters?

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« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2014, 07:24:10 PM »

No, I believe for many years I've been using the "International cut" term in the same away as others, which is that it's more or less synonymous with "US cut" (because the US cut was the most complete version of the International cut). Do you agree the terms "International cut" and "US cut" have been used interchangeably (here and on other boards) when referring to the 161 min original theatrical release version?

One could argue that there's no such thing as the "International cut" because there was no single version shown in the rest of the world. I guess it's more correct to say that VARIANTS of the IC were shown in the various countries. The VARIANTS of the IC stemmed, in part, from the fact that there were different censorship restrictions in these countries. This speaks to your US vs UK example that Frayling describes in his book; the UK released an abbreviated/more censored version of the IC.

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« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2014, 07:33:56 PM »

Anyway, so you are saying the 1998 MGM DVD is different than the US theatrical version - do you know yet the exact differences or are you still trying to figure them out?

Some examples of the differences are shown in the screen caps I posted on page 1 of this thread. The differences aren't huge and there still may be more.

And if you are trying to figure out the theatrical version from what was shown on tv - how can you be sure that the TV versions would have been the same as the theatrical versions?

Point is, can you be sure that the version shown on TV would have been the same as the one shown in theaters?

The 80's TV version discussed here is not by any means definitive evidence on its own. However, it is consistent with a growing body of evidence that the 98 DVD is NOT the IC.

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drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2014, 07:55:47 PM »

No, I believe for many years I've been using the "International cut" term in the same away as others, which is that it's more or less synonymous with "US cut" (because the US cut was the most complete version of the International cut). Do you agree the terms "International cut" and "US cut" have been used interchangeably (here and on other boards) when referring to the 161 min original theatrical release version?

One could argue that there's no such thing as the "International cut" because there was no single version shown in the rest of the world. I guess it's more correct to say that VARIANTS of the IC were shown in the various countries. The VARIANTS of the IC stemmed, in part, from the fact that there were different censorship restrictions in these countries. This speaks to your US vs UK example that Frayling describes in his book; the UK released an abbreviated/more censored version of the IC.

161 mins. vs. 148 mins. to me seems like a very big difference, not merely a variant of the same cut.
To me, it seems more useful to specify US cut vs. UK cut (or any other countries that had different cuts), but you know a helluva lot more about this movie than I do. I probably misunderstood what people meant by Int'l cut - I am relatively new to this movie (my first viewing was in 2009, the extended version; I've never watched any version other than the extended one. I own the '98 DVD but haven't watched it).
I don't mean to tell you which term you should use; I just wanted to clarify which version you were referring to  Wink

« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 08:03:26 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2014, 08:00:17 PM »

Some examples of the differences are shown in the screen caps I posted on page 1 of this thread. The differences aren't huge and there still may be more.

so those 7 extra shots you posted are on the '98 DVD, but you believe they were not in the US theatrical version? You believe the '98 DVD added those 7 shots?

anyway, I don't think it's too hard to contact Glenn Erickson himself. I know Groggy has been in touch with him. Maybe you can try that and see what he has to say. In the meantime, I'll remain civil about him and his buddy John Kirk so that I don't turn them off from reading this thread  Wink

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« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2014, 08:08:56 PM »

161 mins. vs. 148 mins. to me seems like a very big difference, not merely a variant of the same cut.

The 148 min UK version sure isn't a variant of the Italian cut! They hacked 13 minutes out of the IC.

so those 7 extra shots you posted are on the '98 DVD, but you believe they were not in the US theatrical version? You believe the '98 DVD added those 7 shots?

anyway, I don't think it's too hard to contact Glenn Erickson himself. I know Groggy has been in touch with him. Maybe you can try that and see what he has to say. In the meantime, I'll remain civil about him and his buddy John Kirk so that I don't turn them off from reading this thread  Wink

I'll probably try contacting him soon. I'd like to gather some more evidence before I do.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 08:10:53 PM by Lil Brutto » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2014, 02:41:02 AM »

UA was the worldwide distributor of GBU, except for Italy. And what they distributed was the so called international version with an 161 min runtime. I never heard of any other country having one of the new scenes in their theatrical version. But several countries compiled shorter versions for 2 simple reasons: they cut out some of the then offensive violence for censorship reasons or they cut some more scenes which are not necessary for the continuity of the story to get a shorter runtime. Or they did both. And it is obvious that the 148 min UK version was only a further trimmed version of the 161 min version for the 2nd reason.

I think there is already enough evidence that the 98 DVD has an additional minute, and is therefore not exactly the international version, but still represents the international version.

Lil brutto, my question at you was what you think so far where this version came from?

My conclusion is (to repeat it) for the DVD MGM went back to the best version they had in their vaults, and that was a dupe negative of the Italian version. And it is possible that this dupe negative was different from the in Italy theatrically released version. Maybe the torture scene was already changed in it.

Another question is what's so important about this small and hardly noticeable differences?

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« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2014, 11:27:38 AM »

Lil brutto, my question at you was what you think so far where this version came from?

My conclusion is (to repeat it) for the DVD MGM went back to the best version they had in their vaults, and that was a dupe negative of the Italian version. And it is possible that this dupe negative was different from the in Italy theatrically released version. Maybe the torture scene was already changed in it.

Another question is what's so important about this small and hardly noticeable differences?

My best guess is the same as yours. They used an Italian version to construct a version that's nearly the same as the IC. Either they opted to leave in the additional footage or it was a result of ignorance. Can't say for sure. As I said above, the difference is minimal but I'm working on a project to preserve the IC so these little details are significant to me. I believe it's worthwhile knowing what version was released initially released in theaters.

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« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2014, 12:02:18 PM »

But why ignorance?

Why should they have spent time back then to cut all these short parts out which do not change the international version in any respect. At worst they don't hurt, at best they make it slightly better.

Actually I think if they one day release the international version alongside the DC, and I'm sure this will happen one day, I would prefer to have this 162 min version instead of the slightly shorter one.

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« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2014, 03:44:10 PM »

I'm curious if they had audio sync issues by leaving this 1 min of extra footage in?

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« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2014, 04:05:50 PM »

But why ignorance?

Why should they have spent time back then to cut all these short parts out which do not change the international version in any respect. At worst they don't hurt, at best they make it slightly better.

Actually I think if they one day release the international version alongside the DC, and I'm sure this will happen one day, I would prefer to have this 162 min version instead of the slightly shorter one.

I think we should remember that both the Italian cut (with the full beating scene) and the original IC are both Leone's approved cut. Anything else is someone else's frankenstien patchwork. Of course I don't mind the extra stuff here and there in the 98 I.c. but that's not what Leone sent out of Italy with his name on it.

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« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2014, 04:15:54 PM »

As an example, let's say that when Leone released the movie in Italy in 1966, someone said to him, " wow, blondie at the end is so cold blooded, after all that partnership he doesn't think twice about leaving Tuco hanging from a noose". Knowing he has a second chance to edit the film for international audiences, Leone decides to add blondie saying "sorry Tuco" to the international cut to soften that betrayal. (This is just me using this as an example, there's no evidence I'm basing this off of)

So should mgm then decide to remove "sorry Tuco" because it's not in the Italian? Or should the Italians decide to add it to their print? The answer is both should leave it as Leone intended at the time. (In 1966 and in 1967).

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« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2014, 08:31:21 PM »

I should check the VHS tape I have of it.

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