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Author Topic: ZWEI GLORREICHE HALUNKEN 35mm screening  (Read 15778 times)
stanton
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« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2014, 05:40:21 AM »

I think we should remember that both the Italian cut (with the full beating scene) and the original IC are both Leone's approved cut. Anything else is someone else's frankenstien patchwork. Of course I don't mind the extra stuff here and there in the 98 I.c. but that's not what Leone sent out of Italy with his name on it.

Hmm, but do we have any evidence that Leone had anything to do with the shorter IC?

And the Sorry Tuco scene was in the German TV version of the Italian version. So it seems that there is an Italian version with that small scene. The existing Italian audio on the first MGM Blu does also confirm this.

As this TV version also included the Italian torture scene (which was quite tricky for the using of the German dub) I have to assume that the Sorry Tuco scene wasn't added form another version.

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« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2014, 11:08:10 AM »

Hmm, but do we have any evidence that Leone had anything to do with the shorter IC?

And the Sorry Tuco scene was in the German TV version of the Italian version. So it seems that there is an Italian version with that small scene. The existing Italian audio on the first MGM Blu does also confirm this.

As this TV version also included the Italian torture scene (which was quite tricky for the using of the German dub) I have to assume that the Sorry Tuco scene wasn't added form another version.

I believe that Leone was contractually obligated from the beginning to deliver a cut of a certain length to UA, I will have to dig into my books/interviews to find exact quotes but yes as I understand he was responsible for deciding what sections to cut for the I.c. The fact that all foreign countries share the same basic ic source (and then hacked it to their own liking) leads me to believe the full ic cut released by leone/Grimaldi was leone sanctioned.

As for sorry Tuco you may be right, I was just using that as an example of where both countries could make the wrong decision.

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drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2014, 11:18:14 AM »

Maybe the 161 min version was "Leone sanctioned" in that once he knew he had to chop some, he chose what to chop; but it's not "Leone PREFERRED," I.E. he preferred ideally to have the Italian version, and only chopped down to 161 mins. cuz he was forced to by UA. Therefore, IMO the Italian version is still the ideal version, and I am happy my boyfriend John Kirk made it available to English-speaking audiences (even with the new dud, which of course isn't ideal but I like it cuz you have the option to use that new English dub or switch to Italian audio with English subtitles for those scenes).

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« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2014, 11:20:02 AM »

Haha typo there, I meant "dub" not "dud" (freudian typo?) Cheesy

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« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2014, 12:53:19 PM »

I can't remember that I ever read something about Leone being responsible for the 161 min version, or at least that he approved it. For me the 161 min version was always the UA version, and as such a cut version like any other film cut against the director's wishes.

But, then, unlike most other cut versions, the 161 min version had begun to carry on a life of its own. Most people were initiated to GBU by this version, and the film works perfectly in this version. The 174 min version is a little bit better, but for the price of being longer. So it's a tie.

But I will now always watch the longer version, alone for the scene in which the drunk captain asks our 2 buggers for their names.

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« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2014, 02:50:47 PM »

I can't remember that I ever read something about Leone being responsible for the 161 min version, or at least that he approved it. For me the 161 min version was always the UA version, and as such a cut version like any other film cut against the director's wishes.

But, then, unlike most other cut versions, the 161 min version had begun to carry on a life of its own. Most people were initiated to GBU by this version, and the film works perfectly in this version. The 174 min version is a little bit better, but for the price of being longer. So it's a tie.

But I will now always watch the longer version, alone for the scene in which the drunk captain asks our 2 buggers for their names.



This passage from this very site (interview with Mickey Knox) implies that sergio was present for the dubbing of the American version, the 161 min cut. I would think that would mean he had some say in the cut that was released? I will check my Mickey knox book when I return home to make sure I am understanding this correctly...

""""
There are rumours that Clint Eastwood and Sergio Leone had a big argument in the dubbing studio of GBU? Have you witnessed to that?

No, I tell you what happened. Clint Eastwood was working in another film, and couldn't come while I was working in the dubbing (of GBU). They did the whole dubbing of the film, except with Clint. Sergio Leone was so god damn cheap. I mean he was incredibly cheap, that he thought "well, I could manage Clint's dubbing myself" without paying me any salary and living allowance. He didn't want me to hang around to wait for Clint Eastwood, getting paid for doing nothing. So, I left. I did everything but Clint's parts.

""""

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« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2014, 03:29:44 PM »

I don't know if he was there (he spoke not enough English to be of much help), but if so, then it is still not a proof that he liked the 161 min cut. Or that he helped to create it. That probably complete dupe negative for the 98 DVD seems more to be an indication that they got the complete version for release. Or for their own disposal.
According to Frayling the contract with UA demanded a film with a 2 hours runtime.

Well, anyway, I assume that Leone was informed about the shorter version of GBU, but I don't know if he has had the power to change it. He sold his soul with these 600.000 Dollars. Especially as UA also got the rights of the other 2 Dollar films for the same price, and all 3 sold worldwide (except Italy, and another exception are Germany and Spain as the co-producers in case of Fod and FAFDM) and for eternity. Can't believe that he and Grimaldi made such a foolish deal. Even if all 3 were not the biggest sellers in the USA, still UA made a fortune out of these 600.000 well spent Dollars.

There is btw somewhere an interview where Leone says that he asked Paramount if they wanted the long version of OUTW or a shorter one. They wanted the long one, so the theatrical version was released in the USA (though only for a short time). I doubt that Leone would have been happy with a shorter version of OUTW, despite asking them.


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« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2014, 01:26:04 AM »

I used to have a French pre 1998 VHS recording of GBU. I'll check that when I'll be back in France. I don't have any VHS player thoug so if I can find the VHS I'll have to send it to somebody.
If I cannot find it I'll ask some friends of mine, former members of the board (John Baldwin and my screenwriter), they may have a copy somewhere.

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« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2014, 07:29:16 AM »

I used to have a French pre 1998 VHS recording of GBU. I'll check that when I'll be back in France. I don't have any VHS player thoug so if I can find the VHS I'll have to send it to somebody.
If I cannot find it I'll ask some friends of mine, former members of the board (John Baldwin and my screenwriter), they may have a copy somewhere.

Thank you, noodles_leone. Let us know what you find.

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« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2014, 09:59:59 AM »

But I will now always watch the longer version, alone for the scene in which the drunk captain asks our 2 buggers for their names.

For me: Angle Eyes at the fort scene, and the scene after leaving Mission San Antonio.  Both emphasize the ant-war theme of the film really well.

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« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2014, 09:42:51 PM »

I don't know if he was there (he spoke not enough English to be of much help), but if so, then it is still not a proof that he liked the 161 min cut. Or that he helped to create it. That probably complete dupe negative for the 98 DVD seems more to be an indication that they got the complete version for release. Or for their own disposal.
According to Frayling the contract with UA demanded a film with a 2 hours runtime.

Well, anyway, I assume that Leone was informed about the shorter version of GBU, but I don't know if he has had the power to change it. He sold his soul with these 600.000 Dollars. Especially as UA also got the rights of the other 2 Dollar films for the same price, and all 3 sold worldwide (except Italy, and another exception are Germany and Spain as the co-producers in case of Fod and FAFDM) and for eternity. Can't believe that he and Grimaldi made such a foolish deal. Even if all 3 were not the biggest sellers in the USA, still UA made a fortune out of these 600.000 well spent Dollars.

There is btw somewhere an interview where Leone says that he asked Paramount if they wanted the long version of OUTW or a shorter one. They wanted the long one, so the theatrical version was released in the USA (though only for a short time). I doubt that Leone would have been happy with a shorter version of OUTW, despite asking them.




I am not saying that he preferred the International cut, but that he approved it/sanctioned it.., I just found this quote from Eli Wallach in fraylings book (regarding the English dubbing in New York)

"Sergio stood beside me for seven straight days. He checked each line, even though he spoke no English."

Clearly if he was that involved in the dubbing and since we know certain italian scenes were never dubbed into English, then they were working with an already shortened cut. If Leone was there for every line of dubbing do you think he'd leave the decisions of what to cut out of the international cut to someone else? It was already a year after the film had been released in Italy and he spent weeks supervising the English dubbing. After all the things I've read on Leone, everyone says he was meticulous in the editing room, so I believe he would have supervised the cutting down of the film. Ergo both the Italian and international cuts are both Leone's.

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« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2014, 03:11:58 AM »

No, I think we still don't know.
There is no information so far who is responsible for the 161 min version, and even if Sergio helped to create it he might not have approved it. But is also possible that UA made it, and as it is a good compromise Leone accepted it, cause his contract with UA obligated him to a 2 hours film. The British 148 min version was then one which damages the vision.
If Leone was happy with the 161 min version, he must have asked himself why the Italian version ran longer.

I never viewed it as an "official" version, that is for me only the 174 min Italian version.

Btw we also have no clue why there are 2 versions of the torture scene.

Another question must be how important the grotto scene was for Leone, if it is true that Grimaldi convinced Leone to cut it out more or less against his intention.

It is also noteworthy that after the first theatrical release also in Italy several scenes were cut out for re-releases. And that it was (according to de Fornari) not till the early 80s that GBU was restored there to its full length. It would be interesting to know if Leone had anything to do with this restoration, cause the grotto scene was not put back.

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« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2014, 06:41:12 AM »

No, I think we still don't know.
There is no information so far who is responsible for the 161 min version, and even if Sergio helped to create it he might not have approved it. But is also possible that UA made it, and as it is a good compromise Leone accepted it, cause his contract with UA obligated him to a 2 hours film. The British 148 min version was then one which damages the vision.
If Leone was happy with the 161 min version, he must have asked himself why the Italian version ran longer.

I never viewed it as an "official" version, that is for me only the 174 min Italian version.

Btw we also have no clue why there are 2 versions of the torture scene.

Another question must be how important the grotto scene was for Leone, if it is true that Grimaldi convinced Leone to cut it out more or less against his intention.

It is also noteworthy that after the first theatrical release also in Italy several scenes were cut out for re-releases. And that it was (according to de Fornari) not till the early 80s that GBU was restored there to its full length. It would be interesting to know if Leone had anything to do with this restoration, cause the grotto scene was not put back.

According to Glenn Erickson at dvd savant, and the Italian censorship documents which tell us the length of the film when submitted in 1966- and what happened in 1969, this is what happened to the beating scene:

In 1966 the film was released in Italy with the full beating scene intact.
The beating scene was shortened/recut for the international cut in 1967.
In 1969 the Italian version was censored for 14 year olds and the film re-released. At this point the Italian negative of the film was changed/damaged.

In the 80's the Italians went to restore the film, but unlike most of the other scenes that were cut entirely (and could be recovered) the negative for the beating scene was damaged or the trims from the negative were lost. What the Italians did then (according to Glenn) is pull what footage they could from the international cut version and join it with what they had left of the beating scene in the Italian version - creating a "hybrid cut". This is the version that has persisted in Italy since then. This version feels very choppy (especially in the audio) because of what happened. It will be interesting to see if the next blu Ray release in Italy has the full beating scene intact (since digital technology can be used to fix/restore it to its rightful place in the film)


(When mgm went to create the long version of the film in 2002 they were starting with the Italian audio track from 1966, which is when they themselves discovered that there was not enough footage in the current Italian beating scene to fill the scene according to the audio track - that's why they searched for the longer version but were only able to find a print of it since the negative was damaged - this is also covered in the dvd savant articles)
(Also taking into account the length of the grotto scene it appears it was also part of the print sent to the censor in 1966)

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stanton
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« Reply #73 on: November 30, 2014, 07:29:17 AM »

Ahh, interesting.

The runtime of the Italian version, often given with either 178, 180 or even 182 min, may have included intermission music or additional exit music.

If these runtimes taken form censorship documents are the same which were made public once on the anica.it site (in meters), than they are not very trustworhthy, as they too often differ very much from the uncut versions released on DVD or Blu. In both directions. I don't know how this can happen cause usually such information tend to be accurate.

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« Reply #74 on: November 30, 2014, 09:42:45 AM »

Well, I would tend to trust an official 1966 document over a modern home video release, especially since the international cut and the italian cut have been mixed back and forth since the 80's,  but you are right, the times may have included an intermission. The grotto scene IS mentioned in the 1969 censorship document as something to be added to the film (or that's what it seems according to a very rough translation), so perhaps it wasn't part of the 1966 cut.

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