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Author Topic: ZWEI GLORREICHE HALUNKEN 35mm screening  (Read 15285 times)
stanton
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« Reply #75 on: November 30, 2014, 11:34:26 AM »

Well, I would tend to trust an official 1966 document over a modern home video release,


Normally I would do this also, but the data I mentioned from the anica.it web site with runtime in meters (and also date of certification and date of release) are surprisingly too often heavily deviating.


Quote
The grotto scene IS mentioned in the 1969 censorship document as something to be added to the film (or that's what it seems according to a very rough translation), so perhaps it wasn't part of the 1966 cut.

Do you have a link for this?

Oh, and ... well I could check this myself, but if you know it already ... then the order of the shots of the long torture scene is identical to the international version?

« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 11:39:10 AM by stanton » Logged

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« Reply #76 on: November 30, 2014, 11:41:10 AM »

Well, I would tend to trust an official 1966 document over a modern home video release, especially since the international cut and the italian cut have been mixed back and forth since the 80's,  but you are right, the times may have included an intermission. The grotto scene IS mentioned in the 1969 censorship document as something to be added to the film (or that's what it seems according to a very rough translation), so perhaps it wasn't part of the 1966 cut.

As I recall, John Kirk said in that bonus feature on the MGM DVD that the only time the grotto scene was ever shown was at the Rome premiere. After that Rome premiere, it was cut and never shown again until Kirk put it back in for MGM's extended version in 2003. I've no interest in going back and watching that bonus feature with Kirk again, but if memory serves me correct, other than the one showing at the Rome premiere, the grotto scene was never shown in any version ever until Kirk put it back in in 2003.

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stanton
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« Reply #77 on: November 30, 2014, 11:45:47 AM »

As I recall, John Kirk said in that bonus feature on the MGM DVD that the only time the grotto scene was ever shown was at the Rome premiere. After that Rome premiere, it was cut and never shown again until Kirk put it back in for MGM's extended version in 2003. I've no interest in going back and watching that bonus feature with Kirk again, but if memory serves me correct, other than the one showing at the Rome premiere, the grotto scene was never shown in any version ever until Kirk put it back in in 2003.

Grimaldi said that it was him who convinced Leone to cut the Grotto scene out. But maybe this was done before the premiere. Memories might be wrong.

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« Reply #78 on: November 30, 2014, 11:51:50 AM »

RE: the debate over whether both versions were supervised by Leone: I think it's possible that Leone cut the 161MV but still preferred the 174MV. Maybe UA told him, we are going to cut some stuff from the movie, and Leone figured he may as well be involved cuz if it's gonna be cut, better that he is involved than leave the cutting to some dude at UA.
So, even if we assume Leone chose which 13 minutes should be cut, it doesn't mean he didn't do it reluctantly, and it doesn't mean that he didn't prefer that UA had left the 174 mins. intact. This is all guessing and speculating, but all I am saying is that even if it were proven that Leone was the one who put together the 161MV, that wouldn't prove that he was happy with it and that he didn't firmly prefer the 174MV. I have to assume that he preferred the 174MV - after all, the Italian distributor seems to have allowed Leone to leave the movie as long as he wanted, and he made the 174MV for Italian release.
I have to assume that Leone's preferred version is the 174MV.

(What I can't understand is why he cut the scene with Angel Eyes at the fort. That scene is very important for the story and for the anti-war theme. e.g. it is more important to the movie than the Tuco in the Gunshop scene, which is basically comedy and showing Tuco's criminal character but not necessary for story or theme. Maybe Leone just so fell in love with the Tuco character that he didn't want to cut a major scene with that character.)

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« Reply #79 on: November 30, 2014, 11:54:54 AM »

Grimaldi said that it was him who convinced Leone to cut the Grotto scene out. But maybe this was done before the premiere. Memories might be wrong.

The fact that (according to Kirk) it was shown at the premiere, was the excuse Kirk used to put that scene back in in 2003. He said he thought it would be jarring for us to see those 3 Mexican bandits without seeing Tuco recruit them; and the fact that Leone indeed showed that version one time gave Kirk the justification like, I'm not putting in a new scene for the first time, Leone did show it once! the fact that he thought it was jarring without it was the reason he wanted to put it back in; the fact that it was shown once at the premiere was the justification he had for doing so, that he isn't doing something that has never been done before.

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« Reply #80 on: November 30, 2014, 12:02:37 PM »

RE: the debate over whether both versions were supervised by Leone: I think it's possible that Leone cut the 161MV but still preferred the 174MV. Maybe UA told him, we are going to cut some stuff from the movie, and Leone figured he may as well be involved cuz if it's gonna be cut, better that he is involved than leave the cutting to some dude at UA.
So, even if we assume Leone chose which 13 minutes should be cut, it doesn't mean he didn't do it reluctantly, and it doesn't mean that he didn't prefer that UA had left the 174 mins. intact. This is all guessing and speculating, but all I am saying is that even if it were proven that Leone was the one who put together the 161MV, that wouldn't prove that he was happy with it and that he didn't firmly prefer the 174MV. I have to assume that he preferred the 174MV - after all, the Italian distributor seems to have allowed Leone to leave the movie as long as he wanted, and he made the 174MV for Italian release.
I have to assume that Leone's preferred version is the 174MV.

(What I can't understand is why he cut the scene with Angel Eyes at the fort. That scene is very important for the story and for the anti-war theme. e.g. it is more important to the movie than the Tuco in the Gunshop scene, which is basically comedy and showing Tuco's criminal character but not necessary for story or theme. Maybe Leone just so fell in love with the Tuco character that he didn't want to cut a major scene with that character.)


Well again, I am NOT debating which version Leone preferred, of course that would be the Italian cut. What I am saying is that there are only two "official" cuts of the film, and that various changes have been made to both versions now so you can't consider either version as currently available on home video as Leone's. Even the 1998 us dvd is wrong, I know this because if you look at early international cuts from other countries, as well as early us laserdisc releases, other than censorship cuts they match exactly my original GBU continuity script (which is literally frame count accurate.)

So what I am saying is the 1998 dvd is missing a couple shots and adds others that shouldn't be there. The Italian version at the very least should have the full beating scene and perhaps the grotto but that is open to debate until further evidence presents itself. Even the music on the current grotto versions seems to be wrong as Morricone composed music for the scene, but that's not what's used.

And according to the Italian documents it's possible the grotto scene was added back in 1969 to make up for other scenes that were cut for a new version of the film released with a 14 rating.

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« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2014, 12:07:05 PM »

The fact that (according to Kirk) it was shown at the premiere, was the excuse Kirk used to put that scene back in in 2003. He said he thought it would be jarring for us to see those 3 Mexican bandits without seeing Tuco recruit them; and the fact that Leone indeed showed that version one time gave Kirk the justification like, I'm not putting in a new scene for the first time, Leone did show it once! the fact that he thought it was jarring without it was the reason he wanted to put it back in; the fact that it was shown once at the premiere was the justification he had for doing so, that he isn't doing something that has never been done before.

It was mainly because Grimaldi said that Leone wanted the scene in back then. And that he cut it out without really wanting it.

The argument that we need this scene cause we should know where these 3 long living guys came from is ridiculous anyway (where is the scene which shows us how Blondie recruited Shorty for the hanging business, I can't watch GBU any longer without having this very, very important information).
But I think actually Kirk (not jerk, not captain) only says that we know now where these 3 came from, not that it is important to know it. The main argument was that Leone did not want to cut it out, but did.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 12:08:29 PM by stanton » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2014, 12:09:10 PM »

Italian documents:

http://cinecensura.com/wp-content/uploads/1966/04/Il-buono-il-brutto-il-cattivo-1a-ed..pdf

http://cinecensura.com/wp-content/uploads/1966/04/Il-buono-il-brutto-il-cattivo-2a-ed..pdf


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« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2014, 12:16:30 PM »

Glenn Erickson's info on the beating scene:

"MGM's beautiful transfer of the Italian version lacked video for the scene where Tuco is mercilessly beaten by the sergeant played by Mario Brega, at Angel Eyes' bidding. An audio track existed that was over a minute longer. Without the video component, the new Italian version had to use the US version of this scene, which rearranged some shots as well. From the soundtrack, the missing minute sounds like 60 seconds' more of relentless walloping on poor luckless Tuco, in a scene considered too rough already. When last Savant checked, the original video for this scene may have been finally found, but too late for the present round of restorations."

Erickson's quote on the italian version:

"The Cineteca Nazionale in Italy did the bulk of the restoration by providing a good negative of the longest Italian cut, which is still a couple of minutes short of the original 3 hours. It was the source for the Italian-language-only scenes on the previous DVD."

Erickson's quote regarding the grotto scene:

"The one completely new scene is called The Grotto. In it Tuco recruits three bandits to murder Blondie. This is the only scene not shown in the original Rome engagement in 1966, before GBU was cut to 161 minutes for general release. John Kirk elected to retain The Grotto because producer Grimaldi categorically told him that it was part of the official cut of the film at the Rome Premiere and was dropped from the first release only for time, against the director's wishes. Kirk reinstated it with the producer's blessing. The restored scene fills GBU's most glaring continuity gap. Without the action in the Grotto, the three gunmen who try to ambush Blondie are unmotivated and gratuitous. The scene also presents Tuco as an accomplished manipulator instead of a malcontented loner."


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« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2014, 12:19:55 PM »

It was mainly because Grimaldi said that Leone wanted the scene in back then. And that he cut it out without really wanting it.

The argument that we need this scene cause we should know where these 3 long living guys came from is ridiculous anyway (where is the scene which shows us how Blondie recruited Shorty for the hanging business, I can't watch GBU any longer without having this very, very important information).
But I think actually Kirk (not jerk, not captain) only says that we know now where these 3 came from, not that it is important to know it. The main argument was that Leone did not want to cut it out, but did.
Of course Kirk's argument that it is jarring to see those bandits show up without knowing where they came from, is ridiculous. But that is his argument.
The fact that Leone once showed it in the Rome premiere is his justification. This is like a legal argument: There is the WHY and there is the JUSTIFICATION. e.g., why do we put people in prison? you can say, WHY we do it is to teach people a lesson. the JUSTIFICATION we have for doing it is cuz they committed a crime. You need both - the WHY, reason that makes you want to do it; and the JUSTIFICATION, what allows you to do it.

The reason WHY Kirk wanted it in is cuz it is jarring; his JUSTIFICATION, what allows him to put it in, is that Leone showed it at the Rome premiere.
if Kirk had said, "Leone really wanted it in, I am just restoring Leone's intended vision," then I would have been happy. But that is not what he says. He says that Leone putting it in shows that there is precedent and he isn't doing something new, but the reason he wants it in is that it is jarring otherwise. Now you know why I've called him Jerk (for that and the mono/gunshot issue, as well).

anyway, if you wanna check the bonus feature on the dvd, you can; maybe my memory is faulty. I have no interest in going back and watching it. Kirk's voice makes me very nervous.

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« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2014, 12:20:21 PM »


 Even the music on the current grotto versions seems to be wrong as Morricone composed music for the scene, but that's not what's used.

 

Yes, that's a strange aspect, and might speak against the Grotto scene being part of any released version.

The scene was doubtless dubbed in 1966, but the wrong music might then indicate that it was cut before the sound for the film was completed. But then MGM or Grimaldi must have worked on it in 2002.

It is also interesting that the Italians still abstain from including the scene on their releases. Is the Grotto scene in the bonus section of the Italian discs, or not even this?

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« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2014, 12:35:02 PM »

Of course Kirk's argument that it is jarring to see those bandits show up without knowing where they came from, is ridiculous. But that is his argument.
The fact that Leone once showed it in the Rome premiere is his justification. This is like a legal argument: There is the WHY and there is the JUSTIFICATION. e.g., why do we put people in prison? you can say, WHY we do it is to teach people a lesson. the JUSTIFICATION we have for doing it is cuz they committed a crime. You need both - the WHY, reason that makes you want to do it; and the JUSTIFICATION, what allows you to do it.

The reason WHY Kirk wanted it in is cuz it is jarring; his JUSTIFICATION, what allows him to put it in, is that Leone showed it at the Rome premiere.
if Kirk had said, "Leone really wanted it in, I am just restoring Leone's intended vision," then I would have been happy. But that is not what he says. He says that Leone putting it in shows that there is precedent and he isn't doing something new, but the reason he wants it in is that it is jarring otherwise. Now you know why I've called him Jerk .


No, I don't know. It is his right to think it is jarring, and I can't blame him when he thinks that he is recreating Leone's vision. And that alone is justification enough as long as he believes in that. He doesn't need a further "why". If I would believe that the scene belongs in the film, I would put such a scene in, even against my own view of the scene as part of the film.

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« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2014, 04:42:18 PM »

Excellent discussion.

A lot of great information here that sheds new light on what version was presented to the Italian censor board and how the film was edited for its various releases over the decades.

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« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2014, 09:14:53 PM »

Hey Stanton (sorry off topic here) but do you happen to own the german blu of FOD that was based on the Italian ripleys home video restoration? If so does it have the FOD outtakes in HD? Just discovered that the Italian blu does not have the outtakes at all, only the dvd version of the ripleys has them (so in SD).

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« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2014, 02:18:27 AM »

Hey Stanton (sorry off topic here) but do you happen to own the german blu of FOD that was based on the Italian ripleys home video restoration? If so does it have the FOD outtakes in HD? Just discovered that the Italian blu does not have the outtakes at all, only the dvd version of the ripleys has them (so in SD).

No, at the moment I stick to my Paramount DVD. I just re-watched it, and it looks very good on my 42" TV.

And as far as I know the outtakes are not on that Blu. The bonus stuff is just the same as on my DVD.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 03:10:23 AM by stanton » Logged

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