Bailey's anonymity

[cigar joe]

there you go Off topic again   moved from OUATITW to OUATIA

drinkanddestroy:

btw, in OUATIA, Bailey is not a senator; he is Secretary of Commerce. In early drafts, he was indeed a senator (from Massachusetts, I believe). But for precisely the reason you mention -- a U.S. Senator would have never been able to retain that sort of anonymity -- the character was changed to Commerce Secretary. And if you still doubt that he could remain relatively obscure, I challenge any American here to tell me the name of our current Commerce Secretary, and if they know what he looks like.

 I would bet few people can do so. (I know it is Gary Locke, but I follow politics very, very closely; I would bet that literally 99% of Americans would not be able to answer the question offhand. But more importantly, I have no clue what he looks like).

How much more so would this have been true in 1968, before the internet, 24-hour cable news channels, etc. So yes, considering that they wanted to portray Max as someone in a position that is both highly successful and one in which he could realistically maintain relative anonymity, I think Commerce Secretary was a fine choice  

[stanton]

With every job as politician Max is a man of the public. And even if he is not one of them who are every days in the news he can't hide himself by having an important job, And he is still in NY (and not in Alaska) where a lot of people know him from his past. After what he did he could only live anonymous, or with a new face and identity, or somewhere at the end of the world.
Well I for example know a lot of the local politicians at least by their names and faces, and people who are interested know a lot of the not so famous politicians also in the higher positions.

[drinkanddestroy]

With every job as politician Max is a man of the public. And even if he is not one of them who are every days in the news he can't hide himself by having an important job, And he is still in NY (and not in Alaska) where a lot of people know him from his past. After what he did he could only live anonymous, or with a new face and identity, or somewhere at the end of the world.
Well I for example know a lot of the local politicians at least by their names and faces, and people who are interested know a lot of the not so famous politicians also in the higher positions.

Max became Commerce Secretary over 30 years after he faked his "death." He had no need to hide from his Mafia/union buddies; they were in on his "transformation." The only people he had to hide from were those who were still alive, knew him in his former life, and were not in on the deal.
Combine the factors: a) it is over 30 years later;
b)  very few people know what the Commerce Secretary looks like even today, with proliferation of the internet and 24-hour news cycles; even more so in 1968, the only way for people to recognize him is if he was somehow in a newspaper or on tv, which would hardly ever happen for Secretary of Commerce. Other than Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, and Attorney General, hardly anyone knows the names, let alone faces, of any Cabinet members. So it is not surprising to me that he would accept an appointment as Commerce Secretary, and that he wouldn't be recognized by those who knew him in his former life (until he was busted for the pensions scandal).

The fact that geographically he lives closer to his old neighborhood than Alaska is of no matter; Max's fancy estate on Long Island is a world away from the tenements of the Lower East Side.

[cigar joe]

Max became Commerce Secretary over 30 years after he faked his "death." He had no need to hide from his Mafia/union buddies; they were in on his "transformation." The only people he had to hide from were those who were still alive, knew him in his former life, and were not in on the deal.
Combine the factors: a) it is over 30 years later;
b)  very few people know what the Commerce Secretary looks like even today, with proliferation of the internet and 24-hour news cycles; even more so in 1968, the only way for people to recognize him is if he was somehow in a newspaper or on tv, which would hardly ever happen for Secretary of Commerce. Other than Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, and Attorney General, hardly anyone knows the names, let alone faces, of any Cabinet members. So it is not surprising to me that he would accept an appointment as Commerce Secretary, and that he wouldn't be recognized by those who knew him in his former life (until he was busted for the pensions scandal).

The fact that geographically he lives closer to his old neighborhood than Alaska is of no matter; Max's fancy estate on Long Island s a world away from the tenements of the Lower East Side.

What he said

[drinkanddestroy]

What he said

huh?  

[cigar joe]

huh?  

means I agree.....

[drinkanddestroy]

means I agree.....

o, I thought it might be that, but I never heard that expression before. (though I have heard of a similar expression which has a very different meaning  )

[stanton]

But you don't get such a job from one day to another. He has to make a career in the party he belongs to, and for that people normally need many years if not decades.

Again. There ain't much sense in faking his death, and then becoming a man who dose things where there is a good chance that someone might recognize him. Which would not only end his new career immediately, but also bring him to jail. And the 1968 timeline shows several people from his past which are still living there.

That's not believable.

[drinkanddestroy]

But you don't get such a job from one day to another. He has to make a career in the party he belongs to, and for that people normally need many years if not decades.

Again. There ain't much sense in faking his death, and then becoming a man who dose things where there is a good chance that someone might recognize him. Which would not only end his new career immediately, but also bring him to jail. And the 1968 timeline shows several people from his past which are still living there.

That's not believable.

Presidential appointments (including Cabinet positions) often go to a president's buddies and politically connected cronies, many of whom have never held any sort of public office before. And union bosses are  some of the most highly politically connected people in America. eg. look at the Obama Administration: It's basically a who's who of Obama's buddies in organized labor (as well as half of his former colleagues on the Harvard Law faculty). Craig Becker was legal counsel for Service Employees International Union, and Obama appointed him to a seat on the National Labor Relations Board. Andy Stern, former President of SEIU, was the single most frequent visitor to the White House. The list goes on and on.

So Bailey had for decades been an influential, highly politically-connected and extremely wealthy hotshot in organized labor; and now, in his 60's, he was appointed as Commerce Secretary. This is a fairly typical resume' for presidential appointees.

 I'd certainly agree that it was somewhat risky for him to have accepted this job. But remember what kind of guy Max is: a brutal thug who has worked as a hit man for the Mafia; a strike enforcer for organized labor; stolen the love of Noodles' life; has spent decades as a union hotshot, which was facilitated by stealing the life-savings of his childhood friends and then having them killed,  So this guy is the lowest sort of scum who has always basically succeeded at getting whatever he wanted and has become extremely wealthy, greedy, probably narcissistic, and power-hungry, and by this point probably thinks he is invincible. And there is no greater power than an influential political position (that's why we always see so many people who are so wealthy and powerful go into politics; it is the ultimate dream of and expression of the power-hungry). Furthermore, as evidenced by Max's ridiculous plan to rob the Federal Reserve, when he sees the possibility of advancement, he may not always be the most rational thinker in the world. So it is not surprising that when faced with the opportunity of a Cabinet position, he would jump at the chance, even though it may not be the most prudent thing to do. So while I think everyone would agree that it was indeed somewhat risky for Max to have accepted this position, as I discussed in previous posts, I think it is definitely realistic that he was able to retain relative anonymity (at least until he got busted for the pensions scandal).

[drinkanddestroy]

I should add one thing: Cabinet members are appointed by the president but must be confirmed by the Senate. Prior to confirmation, the Senate conducts hearings about the nominee. So while as detailed previously, I believe it is completely realistic for a Bailey to have maintained anonymity during his tenure, I think a more difficult task would be covering up his past during the Senate investigations and subsequent confirmation hearings. But I guess that a) a guy with all of Bailey's connections, including with the mafia, would be able to have documents forged, etc. to account for his past; and it would probably have been far easier to do a thing like that in the 1960's than today, with internet and electronic records; and

 b) the investigations into nominees' for positions such as Commerce Secretary almost certainly are far less extensive than those for more prestigious Cabinet-level positions (such as Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, and Attorney General).

(on an unrelated note: it makes perfect sense that the position Bailey would be appointed for was Secretary of Commerce, cuz the regulation of commerce substantially affects organized labor)

[dave jenkins]

D&D, you've made a couple of really excellent posts there. Your points are extremely well taken.

[drinkanddestroy]

D&D, you've made a couple of really excellent posts there. Your points are extremely well taken.

Thanks, brother; you are very kind. Much appreciated  

[drinkanddestroy]

how many people here have ever seen this guy's picture on tv or in a newspaper? http://www.commerce.gov/about-commerce/commerce-leadership/secretary-gary-locke

Ditto for most of the Cabinet heads listed here; I would bet that hardly anyone has ever seen a picture in a newspaper or television of any of the cabinet positions listed on this page, other than Attorney General, and Secretaries of Defense, State, Homeland Security, and Treasury: http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/cabinet

[Groggy]

I should add one thing: Cabinet members are appointed by the president but must be confirmed by the Senate. Prior to confirmation, the Senate conducts hearings about the nominee. So while as detailed previously, I believe it is completely realistic for a Bailey to have maintained anonymity during his tenure, I think a more difficult task would be covering up his past during the Senate investigations and subsequent confirmation hearings. But I guess that a) a guy with all of Bailey's connections, including with the mafia, would be able to have documents forged, etc. to account for his past; and it would probably have been far easier to do a thing like that in the 1960's than today, with internet and electronic records; and

 b) the investigations into nominees' for positions such as Commerce Secretary almost certainly are far less extensive than those for more prestigious Cabinet-level positions (such as Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, and Attorney General).

(on an unrelated note: it makes perfect sense that the position Bailey would be appointed for was Secretary of Commerce, cuz the regulation of commerce substantially affects organized labor)

Yeah, this. The public doesn't get a say in who gets appointed to the Cabinet; I doubt too many people could recognize any of Obama's cabinet except Hillary and maybe Gates. Congress, however, does tend to air even the tiniest flaws and mistakes in a candidate's past during confirmation hearings, and I seriously doubt (even in the '60s) Max could have gotten away with it. It's not quite a plot hole but an implausibility that doesn't sit well with me.

Leone might have been thinking about the Kennedys and their rumored Mob connections, but Jack and Bobby Kennedy weren't Mob enforcers before they ran for political office.

[cigar joe]

But it doesn't mean he is the US Secretary of Commerce, he may just be Secretary of Commerce for NYS.