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: Death Rides a Horse aka Da uomo a uomo (1967)  ( 54393 )
cigar joe
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« #195 : December 28, 2017, 04:09:05 AM »

Cool.  There was a vote.  I think it comes down to taste. I've mentioned before that i personally don't like the "comedy, slapstick " elements in the sphagetti westerns.  I prefer a more serious tone in the films i like.  Thats why i like FAFDM more than i like GBU.  Death Rides a Horse has the same tone as FAFDM and a Fist Full of Dollars, which is why i've said its the closest to the Leone Dollars films ( of the sphagetti westerns i've seen), than other sphagetti westerns. 

Of the few sphagetti westerns i've seen, Sabatha is another film that personally, i liked, but it had waay to much quirky, slapstick like tones to it.  The convoluted plot didn't help matters much.  The guy with the jingly boots REALLY irked me also.

I never liked Sabata either, but it was advertised and sold the wrong way in 1969, I first thought it was a more serious Spaghetti Western, and that Van Cleef was going to be another Mortimer, or Corbet, but he's more like secret service agent, a Jim West type character from The Wild Wild West which was a slightly over the top TV show in the 60s. If I had gone into it knowing it was going to be in that vein and over the top I may have liked it more.

In The Grand Duel he's more serious but I never liked the film, all the other characters just seem off.

In El Condor he plays way off type, playing more the traditional western sidekick, they type of roles a Walter Brennan, Arthur Hunnicutt, and his good friend   Forrest Tucker used to play. He's Jaroo, a saddle bum drunk, and he does show his range with it pretty well.

Van Cleef always hoped he'd follow in Tucker's footsteps getting a gig on a long running TV series and be set for life collecting residual paychecks.


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« #196 : December 28, 2017, 04:17:08 AM »

Sabata is a totally over the top James Bond-like SW, and that was the way the SWs was heading at, before they turned into pure comedies. The basis for this way was laid out by Leone in FAFDM, if not already in FoD.

Sabata itself had already a direct forerunner with Parollini's previous western If You meet Sartana Pray for Your Death, with Sabata being only a lighter variant of the more grim Sartana character, and both are clearly walking in the boots of Col. Mortimer.


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« #197 : December 28, 2017, 04:17:54 AM »

It's always taste. Whatelse?
There is no truth about art, only opinions.

I don't think there is more comedy in GBU compared to FAFDM. All Leone films have their funny moments, but they are no comedies. There is always plenty to laugh in OuTW too.

Of course Death Rides a Horse shares some similarities to FAFDM, at least the screenplay-writer worked on  both, and Death Rides a Horse was filmed as written, but what counts is not the story, but how it all was filmed, and in that regard Death Rides a Horse is mostly ordinary stuff for me.

What Moorman is describing is what I call the "Tuco" factor, practically all the posters that say they don't like GBU site Tuco. And like stanton says there is no slapstick stuff in GBU, it's just an overly animated character that plays off Eastwood. You either like Tuco or you don't.

Which always makes me think of how different Duck You Sucker would have been with Wallach in the lead rather than Steiger, and then you get the impression that all the GBU detractors would have preferred Tuco to be played the way Steiger played Juan Miranda.


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« #198 : December 28, 2017, 06:12:09 PM »

I never liked Sabata either, but it was advertised and sold the wrong way in 1969, I first thought it was a more serious Spaghetti Western, and that Van Cleef was going to be another Mortimer, or Corbet, but he's more like secret service agent, a Jim West type character from The Wild Wild West which was a slightly over the top TV show in the 60s. If I had gone into it knowing it was going to be in that vein and over the top I may have liked it more.

In The Grand Duel he's more serious but I never liked the film, all the other characters just seem off.

In El Condor he plays way off type, playing more the traditional western sidekick, they type of roles a Walter Brennan, Arthur Hunnicutt, and his good friend   Forrest Tucker used to play. He's Jaroo, a saddle bum drunk, and he does show his range with it pretty well.

Van Cleef always hoped he'd follow in Tucker's footsteps getting a gig on a long running TV series and be set for life collecting residual paychecks.

My exact feelings about Sabata.  I even said that if they had marketed it as a Wild West type of film, then i would've like it more.  It had a lot of good elements that i felt got wasted because of the waay over the top quirky stuff they was doing. The pole vaulting that Alley Cat did was just wrong, lol.

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« #199 : December 28, 2017, 06:14:52 PM »

Sabata is a totally over the top James Bond-like SW, and that was the way the SWs was heading at, before they turned into pure comedies. The basis for this way was laid out by Leone in FAFDM, if not already in FoD.

Sabata itself had already a direct forerunner with Parollini's previous western If You meet Sartana Pray for Your Death, with Sabata being only a lighter variant of the more grim Sartana character, and both are clearly walking in the boots of Col. Mortimer.

A Fist Full of Dollars and For A Few Dollars More share ZERO comedic elements to later sphagetti westerns, in my opinion. To me, Tuco in GBU was the closest Leone got to that type of element...

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« #200 : December 29, 2017, 02:34:11 AM »

A Fist Full of Dollars and For A Few Dollars More share ZERO comedic elements to later sphagetti westerns, in my opinion.

Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mLu5jOUmws

There is more in FAFDM. Like the LvC and Eastwood shooting contest (with hat and audience). Tuco is a much more mature conception of a potential comedic character, like GBU is a much more mature film in every respect.




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« #201 : December 29, 2017, 03:08:02 AM »

Absolutely. I understand why many hold up FAFDM as their favorite, it is a perfect western - if one is going for that. GBU is much more mature and artistic and I can't find more or less "comedy" elements in it than in any other Leone. He was a very humorous man and it shows in his films. Even GIU LA TESTA, who has the saddest scenes of any of Leone's westerns, has some funny moments to relief the audience. Tuco is my favorite performance in any of Leone's films, which are full of great performances from GBU on...



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« #202 : December 29, 2017, 03:36:26 AM »

A Fist Full of Dollars and For A Few Dollars More share ZERO comedic elements to later sphagetti westerns, in my opinion. To me, Tuco in GBU was the closest Leone got to that type of element...

Yea, Moorman there is some, besides the hat shoot, the "damn trains" sequence with the old man who lives too close to the railroad line that his shack shakes whenever a locomotive passes by, also the sequence where Mortimer strikes the match on Wild's Hump, then later when they re-meet, is another.



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« #203 : December 29, 2017, 06:42:16 AM »

Yea, Moorman there is some, besides the hat shoot, the "damn trains" sequence with the old man who lives too close to the railroad line that his shack shakes whenever a locomotive passes by, also the sequence where Mortimer strikes the match on Wild's Hump, then later when they re-meet, is another.


But none of it was the quirky slapstick like humor found in other sphags. In fact, the hat scene came across as a serious show of gunmsanship to me.  

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« #204 : December 29, 2017, 06:43:20 AM »

also the sequence where Mortimer strikes the match on Wild's Hump, then later when they re-meet, is another.


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« #205 : December 29, 2017, 03:44:36 PM »

But none of it was the quirky slapstick like humor found in other sphags. In fact, the hat scene came across as a serious show of gunmsanship to me.  

Nobody called it slapstick, stanton called it comedic, I'll call it humorous. The slapstick stuff that I call slapstick is in My Name Is Nobody.


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« #206 : December 29, 2017, 07:05:37 PM »

Nobody called it slapstick, stanton called it comedic, I'll call it humorous. The slapstick stuff that I call slapstick is in My Name Is Nobody.

Cool. I really don't know WHAT word to use.   I love sphagetti westerns, but i get the feeling that the Italian directors and producers NEVER intended to make serious westerns.  The proof is the direction they took in the later years.  Its almost as if the original sphags were restrained from the direction they wanted to go. I could be completely or partially wrong, but thats the impression i get.

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« #207 : December 30, 2017, 03:31:49 AM »

Cool. I really don't know WHAT word to use.   I love sphagetti westerns, but i get the feeling that the Italian directors and producers NEVER intended to make serious westerns.  The proof is the direction they took in the later years.  Its almost as if the original sphags were restrained from the direction they wanted to go. I could be completely or partially wrong, but thats the impression i get.

In later years Spags were surely often extremely over the top, and of course as ideas became sparse and success began to wane, the comedy aspects became very important after the massive success of the 2nd Trinity film. But in the early years (let's say from 1965 to 1969) SWs were at first very violent (for its time), very cynical and quite sadistic. Calling most of them "serious" seems to fit the sub- genre.

If you have watched only few of these "serious" SWs, you most likely watched the wrong ones.


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« #208 : December 30, 2017, 03:41:10 AM »

Cool. I really don't know WHAT word to use.   I love sphagetti westerns, but i get the feeling that the Italian directors and producers NEVER intended to make serious westerns.  The proof is the direction they took in the later years.  Its almost as if the original sphags were restrained from the direction they wanted to go. I could be completely or partially wrong, but thats the impression i get.

Looks like out the SW explotation which ran about 1964 to 1977 we got about six or seven capable directors out of which emerged one genius Leone on my opinion.  Out of 500 plus films we have maybe 20 good-excellent films.

Out of these directors and films, a general pattern emerges, each made at least a good Spaghetti Western, a Zapata Western and then a Comedy Spaghetti. Leone and Corbucci since they started very early in the Genre were able to make a few more Spaghetti's and with Corbucci a few more Zapatas than the rest.

You would think that if the genre was not quite as popular as it became, it might have been able to sustain itself but the flood of exploitation must have run the well of creativity dry quickly. If ideas were able to develop a bit slowly many more great films may have emerged, but the competion and quick development had to take even good ideas and rush them out before the next guy came up with it.


But there are a lot of genres that follow this pattern of serious to spoof if you think about it.

« : December 30, 2017, 03:51:20 AM cigar joe »

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« #209 : December 30, 2017, 04:53:51 AM »

Looks like out the SW explotation which ran about 1964 to 1977 we got about six or seven capable directors out of which emerged one genius Leone on my opinion.  Out of 500 plus films we have maybe 20 good-excellent films.




I have watched over 80 Spags which are good (6/10 and upwards), and dozens more which were good enough to be called entertaining, films which are of acceptable quality (4 or 5/10).


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