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Author Topic: The Noir Genre (it really isn't one)  (Read 5040 times)
drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2011, 07:53:58 AM »

i havee definitely seen noir stylistic films.... Eg.  Where the Sidewalk Ends.... and what about the one with Robert Ryan and Van Heflin, i forgot the name, they were both pow's in the same camp and Ryan, with a limp, is now chasing Heflin.. i am pretty sure both are solid stylisticly noir flms... And Double Indemnity has so many of the famous shadow shots copied on so many other movies since

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« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2011, 08:04:31 AM »

and The set-up with R.Ryan also a stylistic noir.... Now, just so i can understand you better, I have a question for you cj: Of all noirs you have ever seen (preferably --though doesn't HAVE TO be--one that you know I have seen as well) give me the one scene or couple of scenes that you think are perfect examples of the noir style, and which you would like to see emulated in a future movie that will be made in your genre

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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2011, 02:16:59 PM »

In my very arrogant opinion, the best noir list ever assembled.

(US 1941-59) I'm not going to count Sunset Blvd, Ace in the Hole, Leave Her to Heaven and Sweet Smell of Success.

01 In a Lonely Place
02 Out of the Past
03 Double Indemnity
04 They Live By Night
05 The Big Sleep
06 The Killing
07 Kiss Me Deadly
08 The Asphalt Jungle
09 Murder, My Sweet
10 The Big Heat
11 On Dangerous Ground
12 Touch of Evil
13 Crime Wave
14 Nightfall
15 The Big Steal
16 Where Danger Lives
17 Decoy
18 The Killers
19 Odds Against Tomorrow
20 The Set-Up
21 Act of Violence
22 Detour
23 Border Incident
24 The Narrow Margin
25 The Maltese Falcon

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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2011, 03:57:46 PM »

and The set-up with R.Ryan also a stylistic noir.... Now, just so i can understand you better, I have a question for you cj: Of all noirs you have ever seen (preferably --though doesn't HAVE TO be--one that you know I have seen as well) give me the one scene or couple of scenes that you think are perfect examples of the noir style, and which you would like to see emulated in a future movie that will be made in your genre

I would say these all have the style and lighting:


The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross  
The Narrow Margin
Crossfire

« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 03:59:40 PM by cigar joe » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2011, 04:09:05 PM »

In my very arrogant opinion, the best noir list ever assembled.

(US 1941-59) I'm not going to count Sunset Blvd, Ace in the Hole, Leave Her to Heaven and Sweet Smell of Success.

01 In a Lonely Place
02 Out of the Past
03 Double Indemnity
04 They Live By Night
05 The Big Sleep
06 The Killing
07 Kiss Me Deadly
08 The Asphalt Jungle
09 Murder, My Sweet
10 The Big Heat
11 On Dangerous Ground
12 Touch of Evil
13 Crime Wave
14 Nightfall
15 The Big Steal
16 Where Danger Lives
17 Decoy
18 The Killers
19 Odds Against Tomorrow
20 The Set-Up
21 Act of Violence
22 Detour
23 Border Incident
24 The Narrow Margin
25 The Maltese Falcon

This is list is all fine and dandy but its not really on topic since they were all created before there was even the concept of Film Noir

Out of your list only

03 Double Indemnity
04 They Live By Night
06 The Killing
07 Kiss Me Deadly
08 The Asphalt Jungle
10 The Big Heat
11 On Dangerous Ground
12 Touch of Evil
13 Crime Wave
14 Nightfall
16 Where Danger Lives
18 The Killers
19 Odds Against Tomorrow
20 The Set-Up
21 Act of Violence
24 The Narrow Margin

Would probably fit in my "Noir Genre" which is what this thread is really about

 Noir God has Spoken Cool

« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 05:32:20 PM by cigar joe » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2011, 04:15:51 AM »

So lets reiterate again to get everyone up to speed  Wink

We are creating from scratch the NOIR GENRE we all know what Noir Style films are from a sampling of the 500 or so films labeled Film Noirs that already exist. Just like the Western Genre there are certain conventions that Westerns have used that became generic.  So in creating a NOIR GENRE we can now come up with a list of conventions and archetypes that will fit it.

So here is my list with the extra inclusions again:

Cinematography - Noir Stylistics - no fill light, Dutch angles, high contrast, shadows, etc.

Time Period roughly between 1934 to 1960 + or - coinciding with aerodynamic cars, boxy square-ish cars are OUT

Time of Day - basically perpetual NIGHT less than 5% of the film should be ever in daylight

Location - at  least 95 % of the film should be filmed in The City and its industrial periphery or a small town, no farms, mountains, beaches, forests, wilderness, unless at night and only 5%.

Music mostly 95% Jazz and Blues, Dino, Sinatra, Bennett, Horne, Holliday, etc., some rock & roll but absolutely no Beatles

Storyline 95% CRIME related and its diegetic world of characters and their usually shady forms of employment.

Characters either obsessed or alienated and adrift in a world out of their control.

Voice Over Narration to advance the story is always acceptable.

Flashbacks can be used to also to advance the story.

Costuming fedora hats a must for men or whenever appropriate,  Women in heels, seamed stockings and garters always unless naked ;-) Smoking & Drinking mandatory

Weather overcast 50% of the film and some rain to provide pavement reflections

Graphic Novel Style as used in the film Sin City is perfectly acceptable in the Noir Genre in fact it may be the least expensive way to create the Diegetic Noir World of the Genre time period.

Archetypes that must always appear, bare lightbulbs in ceiling fixtures or hanging from cords, neon signs, etc., etc. we can make a use list of these. ;-)

So what we should do from here on out is examine each of the criteria and go into them in depth, or add any if something is missing (as in the archetypes) list iconic characters that should be in these films. If you have a list of favorite Noir Style films examine the elements used in their creation and discuss the elements rather than just say a film title.  Remember that I'm also creating the Film Soliel Genre so the sun baked desert and crossroad diners Noir stylistic films that have more day than night should go into that Genre.


« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 04:25:00 AM by cigar joe » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2011, 03:37:32 PM »

CJ, you need to re-think the criteria if you don't have stuff like Out of the Past included. I can't think of a better example of noir.

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« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2011, 05:23:51 PM »

CJ, you need to re-think the criteria if you don't have stuff like Out of the Past included. I can't think of a better example of noir.

Ditto  Afro

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« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2011, 05:24:29 PM »

I would say these all have the style and lighting:


The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross  
The Narrow Margin
Crossfire

I haven't seen a single one of these (yet)

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« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2011, 07:20:13 PM »

CJ, you need to re-think the criteria if you don't have stuff like Out of the Past included. I can't think of a better example of noir.

You guys aren't following my drift, I agree its a good film noir as film noir is currently defined, BUT it isn't very DARK as compared to the Visually Hard Core Noirs which I'm using for the template for my Noir Genre.

There are whole passages in Out Of The Past that take place in broad daylight, the town sequences, the Mexican sequences, the fishing sequences near the end. Another example of a good film noir that isn't very dark is The Naked City.

What I'm doing is Creating a new genre from this point in TIME on out, and just like Westerns this new genre will be recognized by its touch stones which I've adopted from what currently is  Film Noir Style.  It will be a visual Genre just like Westerns are immediately recognized as such by the world they take place in..... get it?


« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 04:43:23 AM by cigar joe » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2012, 04:38:46 AM »

My updated list of candidates for the (new) True Noir Genre  Cool

The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
Crossfire
Red Light
They Live By Night
Where Danger Lives
The Set Up
The Phantom Lady
Scarlett Street
The Window
99 River Street
Double Indemnity

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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2012, 02:45:43 PM »

Again Updated Hard Core Noirs so far that would fit the true Noir Genre

The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
Crossfire
Red Light
They Live By Night
Where Danger Lives
The Set Up
The Phantom Lady
Scarlett Street
The Window
99 River Street
Killers Kiss
The Killers
Double Indemnity
Touch of Evil

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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2012, 02:52:59 PM »

Again Updated Hard Core Noirs so far that would fit the true Noir Genre

The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
Crossfire
Red Light
They Live By Night
Where Danger Lives
The Set Up
The Phantom Lady
Scarlett Street
The Window
99 River Street
Killers Kiss
The Killers
Double Indemnity
Touch Of Evil

Red Light? As I recall, more than 5% of that movie takes place by day.

And what about Where the Sidewalk Ends?


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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2012, 03:59:55 PM »

Red Light? As I recall, more than 5% of that movie takes place by day.

And what about Where the Sidewalk Ends?



On the 5% I just threw that figure out there, remember we are making the decisions on the genre, so the 5% is debatable who knows we could let it go to 10 or 15%

I added Touch of Evil, Yea Where the Sidewalk Ends would probably fit too, others that may fit are Black Angel, Fallen Angel and The Strange Love of Martha Ivers. I just have to review them again

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« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2012, 02:15:45 PM »

A better take:

It would almost be better to say that, rather than call these films a genre call them a style/tool of film making used in certain film/plot sequences or for a films entirety that was used to conveyed claustrophobia, alienation, obsession, and events spiraling out of control, that came to fruition in the roughly the period of the last two and a half decades of B&W film.

Then you can say we have this Film Noir Style that can have two opposite poles one would be Films de la nuit, Films of the night, or Films de la nuit éternelle, Films of the eternal night, the opposite would be Films Soleil, films of the sun, those sun baked, filled with light Noirs, then all the rest would fit in the spectrum in between being various shades of grey or Films Gris.
No? ;-)

Films de la nuit

Armored Car Robbery
The Asphalt Jungle
The Big Combo
Black Angel
Crime Wave
Criss Cross
The Crooked Way
Crossfire
The Dark Corner
Dead Reckoning
Detour
Double Indemnity
Edge of Doom
Fallen Angel
He Walked By Night
Killers Kiss
The Killers
The Killing
Kiss Me Deadly
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
99 River Street
The Phantom Lady
Raw Deal
Red Light
Scarlett Street
The Strange Lives of Martha Ivers
Sudden Fear
Storm Warming
T Men
The Set Up
They Live By Night
They Made me a Fugitive
Touch Of Evil
Where Danger Lives
Where The Sidewalk Ends
The Window

« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 02:17:57 PM by cigar joe » Logged

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