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stanton
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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2011, 08:34:14 AM »



Who said I don't like Spaghetti Westerns?
Whoever told you that is lying.




I haven't said you were a liar, nor has anybody else. I was just referring to your list which obviously doesn't include any SWs. It was only a question why there are no SWs on your list, not even a Leone.

So it is cause you don't think they are important, or because you have included only US westerns? but At least one European western by Jan Troell made your list.

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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2011, 08:51:55 AM »

OK, here is the complete list, so that you all know what we are talking about. It's of course a questionable list, just like any other list, but all in all, and apart from some of the usual strange surprises in the lower ranks (e.g. Fassbinder's Whity), it is imo a list you can work with.
But remember it were at the end only 16 voters, each list contained 50 films and in order. Means that that some of the surprising choices would have been levelled if more lists had emerged.

THE WESTERN LIST (GENRE PROJECT) TOP 100

01 Man of the West (Anthony Mann 1958) 521
02 Rio Bravo (Howard Hawks 1959) 494
03 Once Upon a Time in the West (Sergio Leone 1968) 486
04 Red River (Howard Hawks 1948) 444
05 Johnny Guitar (Nicholas Ray 1954) 424
06 My Darling Clementine (John Ford 1946) 415
07 the Searchers (John Ford 1956) 404
08 the Good, the Bad and the Ugly (Sergio Leone 1966) 400
09 Winchester '73 (Anthony Mann 1950) 398
10 McCabe and Mrs Miller (Robert Altman 1971) 397

11 the Wild Bunch (Sam Peckinpah 1969) 377
12 the Naked Spur (Anthony Mann 1953) 346
13 Stagecoach (John Ford 1939) 344
14 Forty Guns (Samuel Fuller 1953) 303
15 Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (John Ford 1962) 291
16 Ride the High Country (Sam Peckinpah 1962) 283
17 Yellow Sky (William A Wellman 1948) 265
18 Little Big Man (Arthur Penn 1970) 256
19 Dead Man (Jim Jarmusch 1995) 240
20 Heaven's Gate (Michael Cimino 1980) 235

21 the Gunfighter (Henry King 1950) 231
22 the Great Silence (Sergio Corbucci 1968) 223
23 Day of the Outlaw (Andre de Toth 1959) 219
24 Seven Men From Now (Budd Boetticher 1956) 217
25 Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid (Sam Peckinpah 1973) 210
26 the Man From Laramie (Anthony Mann 1955) 201
27 For a Few Dollars More (Sergio Leone 1965) 195
28 Ulzana's Raid (Robert Aldrich 1972) 190
29 Ride Lonesome Budd Boetticher 1959) 184
30 El Dorado (Howard Hawks 1966) 180

31 Bend of the River (Anthony Mann 1952) 174
32 Rancho Notorious (Fritz Lang 1952) 160
33 the Big Trail (Raoul Walsh 1930) 157
34 the Treasure of Sierra Madre (John Huston 1948) 155
35 Wagon Master (John Ford 1950) 153
36 Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (George Roy Hill 1969) 150
37 Canyon Passage (Jacques Tourneur 1946) 148
37 High Noon (Fred Zinnemann 1952) 148
37 the Shooting (Monte Hellman 1968) 148
37 Terror in a Texas Town (Joseph H Lewis 1958) 148

41 the Ox-Bow Incident (William A Wellman 1943) 145
42 the Hired Hand (Peter Fonda 1971) 142
43 Track of the Cat (William A Wellman 1954) 137
44 Black God, White Devil (Glauber Rocha 1964) 136
45 Shane (George Stevens 1953) 134
45 the Westerner (William Wyler 1940) 134
47 Pursued (Raoul Walsh 1947) 133
48 Destry Rides Again (George Marshall 1939) 131
49 the Far Country (Anthony Mann 1954) 130
50 Duel in the Sun (King Vidor 1946) 122

51 Major Dundee (Sam Peckinpah 1965) 121
52 the Professionals (Richard Brooks 1966) 120
53 One-Eyed Jacks (Marlon Brando 1961) 119
54 Lonesome Dove (Simon Wincer 1989) 116
55 Django (Sergio Corbucci 1966) 112
56 the Furies (Anthony Mann 1950) 110
56 High Plains Drifter (Clint Eastwood 1973) 110
56 Vera Cruz (Robert Aldrich 1954) 110
59 the Tall T (Budd Boetticher 1957) 107
60 the Ballad of Cable Hogue (Sam Peckinpah 1970) 101

61 Bad Company (Robert Benton 1972) 100
61 Colorado Territory (Raoul Walsh 1949) 100
61 Duck, You Sucker! (Sergio Leone 1971) 100
64 the Mercenary (Sergio Corbucci 1968) 98
65 True Grit (the Coen Brothers 2010) 95
66 Backlash (John Sturges 1956) 92
67 A Bullet for the General (Damiano Damiani 1966) 91
67 Whity (RW Fassbinder 1971) 91
69 the Tin Star (Anthony Mann 1957) 90
70 Blazing Saddles (Mel Brooks 1974) 89

71 the Iron Horse (John Ford 1924) 83
72 She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (John Ford 1949) 82
73 Hell's Hinges (Charles Swickard 1916) 79
73 Unforgiven (Clint Eastwood 1992) 79
75 Buck and the Preacher (Sidney Poitier 1972) 77
75 the Last Sunset (Robert Aldrich 1961) 77
77 the New World (Terrence Mallick 2005) 76
78 Calamity Jane (David Butler 1953) 74
79 Ramrod (Andre de Toth 1947) 72
79 Silver Lode (Allan Dwan 1954) 72
79 Two Rode Together (John Ford 1961) 72

82 Blood on the Moon (Robert Wise 1948) 71
82 China 9 Liberty 37 (Monte Hellman 1978) 71
82 Union Pacific (Cecil B DeMille 1939) 71
85 the Big Country (William Wyler 1958) 70
86 A Big Hand For the Little Lady (Fielder Cook 1966) 69
87 Django, Kill! (Guilio Questi 1967) 67
88 the Great Train Robbery (Edwin S Porter 1903) 65
88 Hud (Martin Ritt 1963) 65
88 the Shootist (Don Siegel 1976) 65
88 Tell Them Willie Boy is Here (Abraham Polonsky 1969) 65
88 the Wind (Victor Sjostrom 1928) 65

93 the Assassination of Jesse James By the Coward Robert Ford (Andrew Domink 2007) 64
94 By the Law (Lev Kuleshov 1926) 64
94 Fort Apache (John Ford 1948) 64
96 Lonely Are the Brave (David Miller 1962) 61
97 Rio Grande (John Ford 1950) 58
98 Viva Zapata! (Elia Kazan 1952) 57
99 Taza, Son of Cochise (Douglas Sirk 1954) 54
100 Campaneros (Sergio Corbucci 1970) 53
100 Jeremiah Johnson (Sydney Pollack 1972) 53

ALSO RANS (Two or more votes, in descending order)
River of No Return, Faccia a Faccia, Dodge City, the Gold Rush, Man Without a Star, the Wonderful Country, Hombre, Little Big Horn, Soldier Blue, the Bravados, Rio Conchos, Broken Arrow, Wichita, A Man Called Horse, Decision at Sundown, El Topo, the Halliday Brand, Ride the Whirlwind, Stranger on Horseback, A Fistful of Dollars, the Hanging Tree, Jesse James, Will Penny, I Shot Jesse James, There was a crooked man..., Junior Bonner, the Violent Men, the Big Sky, the Long Riders, True Grit (Hathaway), Comanche Station, Kill and Pray, the Outlaw Josey Wales, Buchannan Rides Alone, Rawhide, the Beguiled, the Missouri Breaks, the Claim, the Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean, Dirty Little Billy, Return of a Man Called Horse, Run For Cover, Dances With Wolves, How the West Was Won, the Plainsman

ORPHANS (Only one vote, In alphabetical order)
A Town Called Hell, the Alamo, Along Came Jones, Along the Great Divide, Alvarez Kelly, Annie Get Your Gun, Anthonio das Mortes, Appaloosa, Arrowhead, the Big Gundown, Boot Hill, Boss Nigger, Broken Lance, Bucking Broadway, Buffalo Bill and the Indians, or Sitting Bull's History Lesson, Carne de horca, Cemetery Without Crosses, the Chechahcos, Cheyenne Autumn, Cimarron (Mann), Cold Mountain, Cowboy, the Cowboys, Culpepper Cattle Co, Dark Command, Days of Heaven, (Deadwood Season One), Deputy Droopy, Der Schatz im silbersee, the Devil's Doorway, Duel at Silver Creek, Duel in the Eclipse, Eagle's Wing, El Puro, Fort Massacre, From Hell to Eternity, From Hell to Texas, Fury at Showdown, Garden of Evil, Go West, Goin' South, the Good, the Bad and the Weird, Great Day in the Morning, Gun Fury, Gunfight at the OK Corral, Gunman's Walk, the Harvey Girls, Heller in Pink Tights, Hondo, In the Land of the War Canoes, the Invaders, Keoma, the Last Frontier, the Last Killer, Last of the Mohicans (1992), Last Train From Gun Hill, the Law and Jake Wade, Law and Order (1932), Law and Order (1952), the Lawless Breed, Lawless Street, the Left-Handed Gun, Lone Star, the Lonely Man, Lonesome Cowboys, Los Hermanos del Hierro, the Lusty Men, Mackenna's Gold, the Magnificent Seven, Man in the Wilderness, Man With the Gun, Matalo!, Meek's Cutoff, the Misfits, Monte Walsh, My Little Chickadee, My Name is Nobody, the Naked Dawn, No Name on the Bullet, North to Alaska, Northwest Passage, the Oklahoma Kid, Osceola, the Outcasts of Poker Flats, Pale Rider, Passion, Posse (Douglas), Posse (Peebles), the Purple Plain, the Proposition, the Quick and the Dead, Ravenous, the Return of Frank James, Ride With the Devil, Riding Shotgun, Run of the Arrow, Saddle Tramp, Santa Fe Trail, Seyyit han, Sholay, Silverado, the Tall Texan, Tears of the Black Tiger, Tennessee's Partner, Tension at Table Rock, Tepepa, Texas Tom, These Thousand Hills, Three Bad Men, the Three Burials of Melquaides Estrada, 3 Godfathers, 310 to Yuma (1957), the True Story of Jesse James, Two Mules For Sister Sara, Unconquered, the Unforgiven, Valerie, Virginia City, Viva Maria!, Wagon Train, Warlock, the Way of the Gaucho, Way Out West, We Were Strangers, Western Union, Westward the Women, White of the Desert.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 08:58:24 AM by stanton » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2011, 01:54:36 PM »

It was not my intention to offend Stanton.

It is rude and inappropriate of him to post the Criterion list here when a link would have sufficed.

At first glance many of the titles that should be included in a best westerns list are included somewhere in the Criterion list reproduced by Stanton above. But the list itself is only half the story. Not all members are allowed to vote. Those who joined recently were not allowed to vote. Voting closed prematurely, ostensibly to be fair to long-time members, but really to insure that a certain individual's control over the list was not challenged. The influence of that certain individual on the Criterion list is overwhelming, if not defining. What is missing from the list reproduced above is her reasoning and tortured logic, the criteria under which everyone who contributes to the list is expected to think. It is a cranky, egocentric, agenda-driven list. For that reason, the list is worthless.

To eliminate Henry Hathaway's authentic American classic True Grit in favor of the remake disqualifies the list. Fassbinder's Whity has nothing to do with the west except in its setting, which is purely arbitrary; internally it's a different kettle of fish. Any period setting would have sufficed for that piece of junk. To include the Terence Malick's Colonial Frontier epic The New Land demonstrates that some people don't know what a western is and don't much care. Anthony Mann's Man of the West (1958) is a superior film and an interesting western, but to say it is the best western ever made is utterly preposterous. Further, the interpretations imposed on it were not present in the minds of the filmmakers, neither consciously nor subconsciously, and exist only in the realm of intellectuals with agendas to push and who like to spin their wheels.

I'll be tinkering with my list in the initial post over the next couple of days. After my criteria and reasoning are explained in the initial post, I will invite everyone to consider it, and then post their own list in this thread, but I won't impose my reasoning and criteria as an absolute.

I'm tempted to delete Little Big Man and Heaven's Gate, among others, which purport to be accurate history, but which are in fact so factually wrong that they are misleading if not historically offensive. Great cinema, certainly, but any film that takes on actual events in real life assumes the responsibility of being accurate and truthful. It's safer to invent than to recreate actual events that you can't do right. Historical intelligence takes effort, but it is not difficult to achieve.


Richard

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:08:30 PM by Richard--W » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2011, 03:52:13 PM »

just a suggestion: rather than change your initial list, write a separate section of updates below it. Changing the initial list may make some subsequent comments look puzzling (eg. if you simply delete Movie X from the list, it will look strange if there is a later comment criticizing your inclusion of Movie X)

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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2011, 04:00:49 PM »

Thanks for your feedback, drinkanddestroy, but my list is a work in progress until I finish it. I want to be sure I get it right, because each film matters to me. I didn't realize how much work it would be until after I posted it.


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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2011, 04:26:16 PM »

To eliminate Henry Hathaway's authentic American classic True Grit in favor of the remake disqualifies the list. Fassbinder's Whity has nothing to do with the west except in its setting, which is purely arbitrary; internally it's a different kettle of fish. Any period setting would have sufficed for that piece of junk. To include the Terence Malick's Colonial Frontier epic The New Land demonstrates that some people don't know what a western is and don't much care. Anthony Mann's Man of the West (1958) is a superior film and an interesting western, but to say it is the best western ever made is utterly preposterous. Further, the interpretations imposed on it were not present in the minds of the filmmakers, neither consciously nor subconsciously, and exist only in the realm of intellectuals with agendas to push and who like to spin their wheels.

Richard
Well put. I'd add that any list that puts a Leone film at 61 has gotta be junk anyway.

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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2011, 06:11:11 PM »

Well put. I'd add that any list that puts a Leone film at 61 has gotta be junk anyway.

I didn't even get up to #61. As soon as I saw Johnny Guitar at #5, I stopped reading. IMO that movie may be among the 5 all-time WORST Westerns ever made.

But of course I agree with you. Every Leone film has to be very high on every respectable list.

I don't expect to agree fully with any list. Nobody will. But seeing Johnny Guitar at #5 instantly disqualifies this list from any serious consideration. It's like putting JaMarcus Russel #5 on a list of all-time best quarterbacks. (For our European members: it's an American football reference, don't bother  Smiley)

UPDATE: I decided to torture myself and read some more of the list:

And I would disqualify anybody who would put River of No Return anywhere near a Best Westerns List. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinions., and everyone has certain films they love that are not popular, and certain films they think are overrated (eg. I never liked The Searchers , Winchester '73 , or The Naked Spur that much, but I sure am not going to criticize the list for placing those high. I know many people consider those great movies. But Johnny Guitar is beyond awful.

And Yellow Sky and Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid should not be in the Top 25. El Dorado annoyed the hell out of me cuz it was a direct ripoff of Rio Bravo, so I never gave it a fair chance on its own.

The following movies should all be much higher on the list than they are: The Shootist, McCabe & Mrs. Miller, The Big Country, The Far Country, Jesse James. McCabe & Mrs. Miller is #10, so I can't complain about that too much. But The Big Country at #85 and Fort Apache at #94? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? And The Shootist is #88, and only 2 votes for Jesse James? And as dj said, any Leone movie at #61?Huh

That's enough space I wasted on this piece of trash

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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2011, 07:38:16 PM »

Hmm... That list doesn't seem markedly worse than the one at the top of this thread. Or anyone else here's for that matter.

I mean really, I don't especially care about the exact spot which the great Westerns are rated so long as they make the list. Sure I wouldn't rank Johnny Guitar anywhere near the top of my Westerns list, but neither would I The Proud of Ones, Last Command or Duel in the Sun (people actually like that piece of crap?). Ratings are inherently arbitrary and personal and it seems ridiculous to disqualify a list based on specific rankings of specific films.

EDIT: Erm, Man of the West as number one? Maybe you have a point...

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 07:56:34 PM by Groggy » Logged


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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2011, 08:08:35 PM »

Hmm... That list doesn't seem markedly worse than the one at the top of this thread. Or anyone else here's for that matter.

I mean really, I don't especially care about the exact spot which the great Westerns are rated so long as they make the list. Sure I wouldn't rank Johnny Guitar anywhere near the top of my Westerns list, but neither would I The Proud of Ones, Last Command or Duel in the Sun (people actually like that piece of crap?). Ratings are inherently arbitrary and personal and it seems ridiculous to disqualify a list based on specific rankings of specific films.

EDIT: Erm, Man of the West as number one? Maybe you have a point...

I agree that I wouldn't get too worked up over a specific ranking of one great movie. For example, I think McCabe & Mrs. Miller is better than #10, but I can't complain about a movie being considered #10. I mean, everyone has different opinions of course, and while I may disagree with that placement, I won't get worked up over that. That is really no big deal. If my problems with the list were just that there was an occasional movie that I though should be a little higher or lower than it is, that would be no big deal. But as I looked through the list, there were so many listings that just made my eyes pop out.

As I discussed in my previous message, there were so many films that I consider to be among the greatest Westerns ever, that are on the bottom half of that list (eg. The Big Country, The Shootist) And so many awful ones are ranked. This is not a matter of me disqualifying a list IMO because of a few disagreements. This is a matter of me just absolutely not believing my eyes when I look at the list. Therefore, I just think it's crap. But that's what lists are. No two people are alike, and that's that. Everyone has their own opinions, and Thank God for that. I am just expressing my feelings that I strongly disagree with this list. With that said, I am sure most of y'all would find my list ridiculous. And I can't remember the last list I saw that I didn't think was ridiculous. So, I never take lists too seriously. I just read 'em, (perhaps get momentarily pissed off  Wink) get a chuckle, make a comment, and move on. No two people are alike, and it is what it is  Smiley

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 08:13:27 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2011, 08:10:24 PM »

Criterion's list also has the problem of being a joint effort, which makes things more problematic.

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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2011, 04:04:04 AM »

 Not all members are allowed to vote. Those who joined recently were not allowed to vote. Voting closed prematurely, ostensibly to be fair to long-time members, but really to insure that a certain individual's c
It was not my intention to offend Stanton.

It is rude and inappropriate of him to post the Criterion list here when a link would have sufficed.

Don't worry I wasn't offended. It is not easy to offend me. Not in real life, and even harder in the net.

But I had to post the list because the lists section is only allowed to see for forum members. (Don't know why)
Means a link hadn't worked for many.


Quote

At first glance many of the titles that should be included in a best westerns list are included somewhere in the Criterion list reproduced by Stanton above. But the list itself is only half the story. But the list itself is only half the story. Not all members are allowed to vote. Those who joined recently were not allowed to vote. Voting closed prematurely, ostensibly to be fair to long-time members, but really to insure that a certain individual's control over the list was not challenged. The influence of that certain individual on the Criterion list is overwhelming, if not defining. What is missing from the list reproduced above is her reasoning and tortured logic, the criteria under which everyone who contributes to the list is expected to think. It is a cranky, egocentric, agenda-driven list. For that reason, the list is worthless.

Well, I entered the forum only a few days before the voting closed, someone mentioned the voting, I checked it and posted my list without having any problems.

As I understood it the day for the closing of the voting was announced, like for all their lists, when the project started, and that was half a year before.

I don't know if this special member, and I don't exactly know which you mean, had any influence on other people lists, but surely not on mine.

Quote

To eliminate Henry Hathaway's authentic American classic True Grit in favor of the remake disqualifies the list. Fassbinder's Whity has nothing to do with the west except in its setting, which is purely arbitrary; internally it's a different kettle of fish. Any period setting would have sufficed for that piece of junk. To include the Terence Malick's Colonial Frontier epic The New Land demonstrates that some people don't know what a western is and don't much care. Anthony Mann's Man of the West (1958) is a superior film and an interesting western, but to say it is the best western ever made is utterly preposterous. Further, the interpretations imposed on it were not present in the minds of the filmmakers, neither consciously nor subconsciously, and exist only in the realm of intellectuals with agendas to push and who like to spin their wheels.



As I said only 16 lists. There were surely a few Mann and few Fassbinder fans on it. Otherwise Whity can't make such a list. (It is not a piece of junk for me, but an interesting film)

Man of the West is also not the best western for me, but great enough not to be annoyed by it's taking of the top position.

The including of The New World is also a simple one. The rule was if one thinks it is a western, it is one and for that it can be voted for. That leads to a few which I or someone else wouldn't count as westerns, but it spares them endless and fruitless discussions of defining what a western is and what not. And these few non westerns don't change or hurt the list in general.

I also prefer the old True Grit to the new one, but thinking otherwise is just an opinion, and the list shows that there are people who share this opinion.

Still, all in all, it it is not a bad list for me. Most others I have seen in the last years are worse. Of course there are several good westerns which were not even named once (Flaming Star, Apache, Across the wide Missouri and others), but on the other hand the first one which I would rate beneath 6/10 is Wellman's ambitious but failed Track of the Cat at #43.

But in the end it is only a list. I don't know why anyone should be annoyed by such a list? Lists are a subjective thing ,and I can't expect from other lists that they reflect my own taste.
 
 


« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 04:06:50 AM by stanton » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2011, 04:22:00 AM »


I also prefer the old True Grit to the new one, but thinking otherwise is just an opinion, and the list shows that there are people who share this opinion.

But why would preferring one version to the other completely drive out the other version from the list? One version could be much higher than the other, but both versions should be on the list (after all, they tell the same story). That is, if it were a serious list.

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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2011, 05:12:49 AM »

The story isn't important, only what the directors make out of it.
I have included the 68 True Grit, but not the Coen film. Which would not even make a top 200 list of mine (nd I like other Coen films very much). But that might change after a 2nd viewing.

But the old True Grit is imo generally an underrated western. I have always read a lot of negative things about it next to the positive reviews. Even from John Wayne fans I have read thinks like " a weak western comedy" about True Grit.

Maybe it is an underrated films because Hathaway simply isn't treasured as directors like Hawks. Maybe Wayne fans despise True Grit for being the film which won the duke an Oscar instead of the preferred Ford or Hawks film.

And for the Criterion list one must have of course also in mind that the voters are maybe also more of the kind which automatically prefer films of established canon directors over the mere craftsmen.

But as part of the lists project it will be redone in a few years, and then we all can assault the forum and turn the list upside down. Wink

« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 06:18:35 AM by stanton » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2011, 06:12:34 AM »

I didn't intend for this thread to turn into a discussion of the Criterion list.
It is not worth the ink.

When I finish my list I will repost it in a new thread and hope for a fresh discussion.

Richard

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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2011, 08:09:18 AM »

But why would preferring one version to the other completely drive out the other version from the list? One version could be much higher than the other, but both versions should be on the list (after all, they tell the same story). That is, if it were a serious list.

Why "should" we if we don't think one is any good? I'd put the remake far above the original.

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