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Author Topic: Fletcher Scene  (Read 33677 times)
drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2012, 09:57:24 AM »

I wasn't.

Is there some point you think you're making Drink? One can have high expectations that are dashed by reality. I guess if something doesn't live up to the hype we shouldn't complain?

Anyway, I'm not going to "appreciate" something Leone-related just because it exists. That's a very simple way of thinking. When I watch GBU it's the 161 minute cut not the Kirk restoration and I suspect this would be the same. The scenes in and of themselves are interesting but why integrate them into the existing film? That's what special features are for.


It is not The Kirk Version; It is the Leone Version! (besides the Cave Scene). I don't know how you can possibly argue with that.Of course that doesn't mean that you have to watch the Leone Version. If you prefer the United Artists Version, then that is what you should watch. But let's call a spade a spade: (Just hit "next Chapter" when you reach the Cave Scene), and the Special Edition is the Leone Version.

That is why we should "integrate the scenes into the existing film." If you prefer to watch a shorter version of the movie, then that is the only version you should watch. But when releasing a dvd, the studio should release the version that Leone wanted (and each individual can choose which scenes he/she wants to watch); the studio should not release the version that some cocksucker at the studio thinks is the correct version. It is the same twisted thinking that caused Jerk to argue that the the Cave Scene should be included, that would cause someone to argue that the other scenes should not be included: the line of thinking that says I should do what i think makes sense, rather than what Leone thought made sense.

You can argue all day long that the 161 version is BETTER. But there is no way you should be arguing that the 161-minute version is the one that the studio should release.
I prefer that they release the version Leone wanted, rather than the version -- whether longer or shorter -- that SOMEONE decides is better

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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2012, 10:05:59 AM »

And doesn't the Grotto scene invalidate that argument?

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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2012, 10:15:39 AM »

And doesn't the Grotto scene invalidate that argument?

I don't understand what you are referring to -- doesn't that scene invalidate what argument?

My point is that when releasing a dvd, I would hope that the feature is exactly as Leone wanted: if there are any scenes that any individual viewer doesn't like, he/she can forward to the next chapter. And any scenes that were shot but Leone chose not to include in the final cut, should be in the special features as a deleted scene. Can you agree to this paragraph?

Therefore, my ideal version of what the released dvd of  GBU is, is a version that has all the scenes currently in the MGM Special Edition minus the Cave Scene, which would be in the special features instead. But since that version is unavailable, the closest thing I can get is the MGM SE, and hit Next Chapter when the Cave scene comes on.

If you prefer the old dvd, enjoy it. It has the additiinal 16 minutes as special features, which is perfect for you. But my point here is not so much to discuss what version Groggy likes best vs. what version I like best. My point is, what version should be released on the dvd? And the answer is:  the exact version Leone wanted.

Similarly, with OUATIA, as far as we know, Leone preferred to have all 45-50 minutes in there, and therefore my view is, let's have it all there; after watching it, each viewer should decide what scenes (if any) he/she doesn't like, and skip those scenes in future viewings. But the dvd itself should be as close as possible to what Leone wanted




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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2012, 12:38:39 PM »

Not as far as we know. As far as you pretend.

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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2012, 05:27:32 PM »

Not as far as we know. As far as you pretend.

Um, No. As far as Christopher Frayling says. That passage from p. 458 of STDWD, which must have been quoted a hundred times here, says  that Leone very reluctantly had to cut 45-50 minutes of what he called "significant material" to get to the film down to 229-minutes.

So this new material that you are trashing was something Leone actually wanted in the movie. You have every right to think it's trash, and that the 229MV is best. But IMO a version of the movie should be released that includes all that "significant material"

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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2012, 05:48:59 PM »

Sorry Drink, I assumed you could read.

I'll make the general point that no sane director wants their work to be cut. Especially one like Leone, who had quite a bit of trouble with studio editors. It's more important, to me, that Leone was ultimately satisfied with the 229 minute version, even calling it "my version." "Significant material" does not mean essential. And if something is near-perfect it's best to leave well-enough alone.

I'll stand by that regardless of your long-winded vociferations.

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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2012, 05:50:52 PM »



I'll stand by that regardless of your long-winded vociferations.

then why did Leone choose to cut the Cave Scene and Socorro Scene in GBU, and the Harmonica Rising Scene in OUATITW?

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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2012, 05:53:15 PM »

Because he realized they were junk.

I do not mean literally, under zero circumstances will a director cut his work. A director has a different idea of the film than his producer or the studio, which is my point. Leone made those cuts of his own volition; the others in question were forced upon him. This is a different question, again, of whether Leone was satisfied with the end result - which he apparently was.

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« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2012, 07:00:53 PM »

Because he realized they were junk.

I do not mean literally, under zero circumstances will a director cut his work. A director has a different idea of the film than his producer or the studio, which is my point. Leone made those cuts of his own volition; the others in question were forced upon him. This is a different question, again, of whether Leone was satisfied with the end result - which he apparently was.

I never said that Leone wasn't satisfied in some way with the 229MV. I believe he thought it was a damn good movie, and I think most Leone fans believe so as well. It's just that he would have preferred it to be even longer. But certainly, he felt the 229MV was a good movie. And that is why he refused to cut it below 229 minutes: cuz he knew that if anything were cut from the 229MV, it would render the story meaningless. I agree that the 229MV is a damn good movie -- heck, it's my favorite movie of all-time! -- but it always bothered me how some things aren't explained as well as they should have been.

------------------
p.s. there is a quote from Leone, from some time after the fact, where he says that he actually prefers the 229MV, for it leaves certain things more ambiguous. I don't know if he really meant it, or was just trying to put a brave face on it all and sell his movie: ie. he knew that the 229MV was still a great movie, and as far as he knew it was the longest version that the public would ever see, so he figured that he may as well stop fantasizing about the longer version and do his best to sell the 229MV as the best version of the movie. There is no way for me to really know what he believed in his heart of hearts, but I have a hunch that he just may have been putting a brave face on it all, and that he really believed a longer version was better. Of course I have no way of knowing the truth; but if Leone had truly felt that the 229MV was better than a longer one, then do you think his children would have made it their life's work to see that additional footage was released?

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« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2012, 08:18:58 PM »

Of course I have no way of knowing the truth; but if Leone had truly felt that the 229MV was better than a longer one, then do you think his children would have made it their life's work to see that additional footage was released?

d&d,

When all this was first announced a few years ago, Raffaella said, In collaboration with Sky we want to restore forty minutes of new scenes that we have found. Mind you, we will not reassemble the film; it will stay what my father did. Wed love to show, however, perhaps in a screening at a festival, this interesting footage.

So, originally the plan was not to reinsert the footage. It was going to "stay what my father did."

Mat

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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2012, 08:20:34 PM »

d&d,

When all this was first announced a few years ago, Raffaella said, In collaboration with Sky we want to restore forty minutes of new scenes that we have found. Mind you, we will not reassemble the film; it will stay what my father did. Wed love to show, however, perhaps in a screening at a festival, this interesting footage.

So, originally the plan was not to reinsert the footage. It was going to "stay what my father did."

Mat

they just wanted to do the scenes separately, like a "special feature," without actually showing a version of the film with those scenes included?

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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2012, 08:28:52 PM »

they just wanted to do the scenes separately, like a "special feature," without actually showing a version of the film with those scenes included?

Yeah, then flash forward a couple of years and all of a sudden the plan was to reinsert the scenes into the existing version and declare it the "director's cut." Why did they change their minds? Who knows? Did they find a passage from Leone's secret diary confirming that he was just putting on a brave face? Did Leone's ghost appear and encourage them to go forth with a full restoration?

I'd really like to hear more about this from the Leone family.

Mat

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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2012, 08:37:09 PM »

Of course the Almighty Dollar (or, um, Euro) may play its part as well.

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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2012, 02:29:01 AM »

Problem with Leone's statements is that he changed his opinions very often, and you can never be sure if he said what he meant or if he only said what he thought to be opportune. And that his statements are too often contradictory.

And even if he was still alive, the decisions he would made now wouldn't be the same he made back in the 80s, or if he had reconstructed the film in the 90s.

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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2012, 04:20:39 AM »

This is true Stanton. We also have the examples of Coppola and (ugh) George Lucas to draw upon, editing their work well after the fact.

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