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« #270 : January 17, 2017, 09:08:34 PM »

FINALLY got around to seeing this. I'm almost speechless. What a movie.  Better than Butch and the Sundance Kid, the movie its probably most similar to.  Everything was on point.  The story. The acting. The cinematography, and of course, the gunfights. I got to let this digest before i comment more on it...

This movie is about as far from Butch & Sundance as you can get, with the one exception being the theme of end of the West (which is the theme of a million Westerns). Oh and yeah, it all ends in a hail of bullets in a Latin American country. But this is as far from that as you can get. B&S is really a comedy; nobody in The Wild Bunch will be riding bicycles to fucking "Raindrops." I don't love either movie (though I have a special hatred for TWB, as you'll see if you read further up this thread, cuz of how much so many fools seem to love it  :P ) But comparisons to B&S? I don't see it. As far as Peckinpah Westerns go, B&S is closer to Ballad of Cable Hogue than it is to TWB  ;)

anyway, I hope you'll watch some of the movies I suggested to you the other day  ;)

« : January 17, 2017, 10:18:33 PM drinkanddestroy »

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« #271 : January 17, 2017, 09:18:42 PM »

Don't believe the idiots around here. The Wild Bunch isn't anywhere near the best movie ever made. Well, decide for yourself. To each his own. Don't go in with any preconceived notions one way or another.   ;)

Looks like you are looking around for good Westerns to watch. Here are some American Westerns you may want to check out: some are great, each of these are at least pretty good

My Darling Clementine
Fort Apache
Stagecoach
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
Red River
Rio Bravo
The Gunfighter
The Far Country
Texas (with William Holden and Glenn Ford)
Jesse James
The Return of Frank James
The Bravados
The Outlaw Josey Wales
 (you might want to watch Unforgiven, which is Clint Eastwood's most famous Western. I do mot like it much but it won him a bunch of awards)
Dances With Wolves - there is the theatrical version, and the director's cut which is like 400 minutes long. I saw the latter. It's a good movie - very revisionist; conservatives may not like it - but it is the reason GOODFELLAS was screwed at the Oscars.
Mccabe & Mrs Miller (probably greatest revisionist AW ever made)


Also, The Cowboys, a cute Western John Wayne made in the 70's.
When you have watched all the other John Wayne Westerns, then watch The Shootist - his final movie, a nice end to his career.

Also, Budd Boetticher directed 7 Westerns with Randolph Scott acting. They are mostly short, with minimal plot and mot many cast members, but some are very good. IMO, there are 4 good movies out of the 7. They are:
Seven Men From Now
Comanche Station
The Tall T
Ride Lonesome
(The 3 I do not like are Westbound, Buchanan Rides Alone, and Decision at Sundown.)

I envy you if you have not yet seen some of these and are about to watch them for the first time.

I am not a big Peckinpah fan at all - I did not write any of his films here, but you can try and see if you his films.


Enjoy  :)


Didn't know you was talking to me when you made this list until you rementioned it after my Wild Bunch review. You are correct, i'm searching for good westerns to watch. I've probably only seen a couple of the movies you listed... Unforgiven and Outlaw Josey Wales. Thanx for posting that list...

« : January 17, 2017, 09:23:00 PM Moorman »
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« #272 : January 17, 2017, 09:21:25 PM »

This movie is about as far from Butch & Sundance as you can get, with the one exception being the theme of end of the West (which is the theme of a million Westerns). Oh and yeah, it all ends in a hail of bullets in a Latin American country. But this is as far from that as you can get. B&S is really a comedy; nobody in The Wild Bunch will be riding bicycles to fucking "Raindrops." I don't love either movie (though I have a special hatred for TWB, as you'll see if you read further up this thread, cuz of how much so many fools seem to love it  :P ) But comparisons to B&S? I don't see it. As far as Peckinpah Westerns go, B&S is closer to Balld of Cable Hogue than it is to TWB  ;)

anyway, I hope you'll watch some of the movies I suggested to you the other day  ;)

I know its far from Butch and Sundance, which is why i said its better than Butch and Sundance.  There ARE similarities, that you  pointed out, which is why i made the comparison.  Butch and Sundance is a  hit and miss movie with me.  On a side note, wait till  you read my Good, Bad and Ugly review when i get around to it.  Lets just say i think its over rated...

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« #273 : January 17, 2017, 10:22:52 PM »

Didn't know you was talking to me when you made this list until you rementioned it after my Wild Bunch review. You are correct, i'm searching for good westerns to watch. I've probably only seen a couple of the movies you listed... Unforgiven and Outlaw Josey Wales. Thanx for posting that list...

I truly envy you if you are about to watch these Westerns for the first time  :)


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« #274 : January 17, 2017, 10:37:50 PM »

I know its far from Butch and Sundance, which is why i said its better than Butch and Sundance.  There ARE similarities, that you  pointed out, which is why i made the comparison.  Butch and Sundance is a  hit and miss movie with me.  On a side note, wait till  you read my Good, Bad and Ugly review when i get around to it.  Lets just say i think its over rated...

The first time I saw GBU (as with a number of other Leone films) I did not like the first half nearly as much as I do now. The first half moved way too slow for me. And I HATED OUATITW. Totally did not understand Leone's style. You have to understand what Leone does; you can't worry about story or whatever. Just listening to the sound itself is an experience. Leone used to say that sound is 40% of a movie. I love those movies now. FAFDM is the only Leone movie that I loved the first time I saw it as much as I love it now. Some of them take getting used to Leone's style.

After you have seen a Leone film once, the second time you watch it, do so with Frayling's commentary (available on FOD, FAFDM, and DYS. Also on GBU, but only on the blu-ray, not the dvd.) Also there is a commentary on OUATITW, its half Frayling and half rabdom commens from other people, some decent some awful.  Frayling's commentaries are a joy to listen to and you'll gain a whole new appreciation for the movies. Watch GBU on blu-ray with Frayling's commentary before you write a review on it  ;)

Also, Frayling's book "Sergio Leone: Something to Do With Death" (abbreviated aroud here as "STDWD") is a must-read for anyone who is, or wants to become, a Leone fan.

My favorite movie - not just Leone, but any movie, period - is FAFDM. Most people say OUATITW or GBU or OUATITW. But IMO, Leone made many great movies but FAFDM Is the greatest.

When you are watching Westerns, bear in mind that the films from the late 30's until yhe early 60's (let's say roughly from STAGECOACH in 1939 - John Ford's first great Western, which is generally considered to be the first great sound Western -  until THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE in 1962,  John Ford's last great Western) established the "rules" of the genre. In the late 60's and onward started the revisionist Westerns, which in many cases were explicitly trying to subvert the genre. You may not understand what some of these revisionist Westerns were all about until you see the originals that established the "rules" of the genre. Of course, you can watch it backwards, or mix it up. However you like it  :)

The whole myth of the gunfighter actually started being questioned as early as 1950 with the great Gregory Peck movie "The Gunfighter." But the real revisionist period probably starts in late 60's: Leone came along with great spaghetti Westerns, then many American Westerns started being more spaghetti-like; then in the 70's it seemed as if so many Westerns (other than John Wayne's) were made with the specific intention of turning every Western convention on its head. A great example of this is MCCABE & MRS. MILLER, which IMO is the greatest revisionist AW. The main charcater in that film is as far as you can get from John Wayne. The town and the townspeople are as far as you can get from God-fearing people moving across the plains in covered wagons to the promised land.

Anyway, whatever your taste, you have good times ahead.

Enjoy  :)

p.s. A few more titles to add to your list: THE BIG COUNTRY, THE PROUD ONES, WINCHESTER '73, BEND OF THE RIVER, THE NAKED SPUR, THE COMANCHEROS, THE MAN FROM LARAMIE. Some of these I like, some I love, some I do not like at all but some other people do. I won't say which is which cuz I don't want you to have any preconceived notions; just go into every movie with an open mind and feel free to like or not like whatever you want. Have fun  ;)

« : January 17, 2017, 10:51:26 PM drinkanddestroy »

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« #275 : January 18, 2017, 01:34:43 AM »

I know its far from Butch and Sundance, which is why i said its better than Butch and Sundance.  There ARE similarities, that you  pointed out, which is why i made the comparison.  Butch and Sundance is a  hit and miss movie with me.  On a side note, wait till  you read my Good, Bad and Ugly review when i get around to it.  Lets just say i think its over rated...

You could check out The Professionals, which bears far more similarities with TWB ;)



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« #276 : January 18, 2017, 03:00:53 AM »




When you are watching Westerns, bear in mind that the films from the late 30's until yhe early 60's (let's say roughly from STAGECOACH in 1939 - John Ford's first great Western,

Surely not. That honor belongs to his silent epics The Iron Horse and 3 Bad Men.

Quote
which is generally considered to be the first great sound Western -  

Surely not. That honor goes probably to The Virginian (Victor Fleming, 1929)

Quote
until THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE in 1962,  John Ford's last great Western) established the "rules" of the genre.

The "rules" were actually established in novels and the films followed these patterns since westerns were made for the screen.

Quote
In the late 60's and onward started the revisionist Westerns, which in many cases were explicitly trying to subvert the genre.

This actually started much sooner.
The first anti-western was probably The Ox-Bow Incident (Wellman, 1943) and many 50s westerns changed or questioned already the "rules". And the cycle of the twilight westerns, which questioned the myths as a central point of their content, started already in 1961 with Ride The High Country (a seminal film for the genre) and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. Actually the western was always in a constant flow stylistically and thematically.

Quote
Leone came along with great spaghetti Westerns, then many American Westerns started being more spaghetti-like;


I know this is debatable, but I'm still pretty sure that the influence of SWs on the US Western was only marginal. US Westerns of the late 60s and 70s do not rely on SWs, but on that what was established and developed in the US westerns in the years before.
If one watches some central westerns from every year of the 60s you'll will easily see how the US Western got from Mag 7 or One Eyed Jacks or Ride the high Country to The Wild Bunch and from that on to The Shootist (1976) and Heaven's Gate (1980) without much outside influence. Especially if viewed in the context of how other US genre films were made in these years.

Drink, if you want to lecture about film history, you should first read more books about film history. ;)

« : January 18, 2017, 04:14:42 AM stanton »

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« #277 : January 18, 2017, 03:53:18 AM »

You could check out The Professionals, which bears far more similarities with TWB ;)

Agree


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« #278 : January 18, 2017, 04:18:14 AM »

Another couple of interesting AM's (American Western) films to add to your must see list Moorman:

Hombre
Rio Conchos
Day Of The Outlaw
The Bravados
Barquero

The best of the non Leone SP's (Spaghetti Westerns) to check out after your American Odyssey

The Mercenary
The Big Gundown
The Great Silence
A Bullet For The General
Vamos A Matar Companeros
Run, Man, Run
Face to Face
Death Rides a Horse
Day Of Anger
Tepepa
Keoma


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« #279 : January 18, 2017, 05:49:32 AM »

The first time I saw GBU (as with a number of other Leone films) I did not like the first half nearly as much as I do now. The first half moved way too slow for me. And I HATED OUATITW. Totally did not understand Leone's style. You have to understand what Leone does; you can't worry about story or whatever. Just listening to the sound itself is an experience. Leone used to say that sound is 40% of a movie. I love those movies now. FAFDM is the only Leone movie that I loved the first time I saw it as much as I love it now. Some of them take getting used to Leone's style.

After you have seen a Leone film once, the second time you watch it, do so with Frayling's commentary (available on FOD, FAFDM, and DYS. Also on GBU, but only on the blu-ray, not the dvd.) Also there is a commentary on OUATITW, its half Frayling and half rabdom commens from other people, some decent some awful.  Frayling's commentaries are a joy to listen to and you'll gain a whole new appreciation for the movies. Watch GBU on blu-ray with Frayling's commentary before you write a review on it  ;)

Also, Frayling's book "Sergio Leone: Something to Do With Death" (abbreviated aroud here as "STDWD") is a must-read for anyone who is, or wants to become, a Leone fan.

My favorite movie - not just Leone, but any movie, period - is FAFDM. Most people say OUATITW or GBU or OUATITW. But IMO, Leone made many great movies but FAFDM Is the greatest.

When you are watching Westerns, bear in mind that the films from the late 30's until yhe early 60's (let's say roughly from STAGECOACH in 1939 - John Ford's first great Western, which is generally considered to be the first great sound Western -  until THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE in 1962,  John Ford's last great Western) established the "rules" of the genre. In the late 60's and onward started the revisionist Westerns, which in many cases were explicitly trying to subvert the genre. You may not understand what some of these revisionist Westerns were all about until you see the originals that established the "rules" of the genre. Of course, you can watch it backwards, or mix it up. However you like it  :)

The whole myth of the gunfighter actually started being questioned as early as 1950 with the great Gregory Peck movie "The Gunfighter." But the real revisionist period probably starts in late 60's: Leone came along with great spaghetti Westerns, then many American Westerns started being more spaghetti-like; then in the 70's it seemed as if so many Westerns (other than John Wayne's) were made with the specific intention of turning every Western convention on its head. A great example of this is MCCABE & MRS. MILLER, which IMO is the greatest revisionist AW. The main charcater in that film is as far as you can get from John Wayne. The town and the townspeople are as far as you can get from God-fearing people moving across the plains in covered wagons to the promised land.

Anyway, whatever your taste, you have good times ahead.

Enjoy  :)

p.s. A few more titles to add to your list: THE BIG COUNTRY, THE PROUD ONES, WINCHESTER '73, BEND OF THE RIVER, THE NAKED SPUR, THE COMANCHEROS, THE MAN FROM LARAMIE. Some of these I like, some I love, some I do not like at all but some other people do. I won't say which is which cuz I don't want you to have any preconceived notions; just go into every movie with an open mind and feel free to like or not like whatever you want. Have fun  ;)

Thanx for the additional movie list. I've always intended to further explore the western genre, and i'm about to go all in.  My experience soo far has mainly been limited to some westerns from 1980 onward, and the Leone sphagetti westerns.  I just recently went back and saw High Noon, The Westerner,  3:10 to Yuma (original), The Wild Bunch, and Major Dundee.  Gary Cooper is a favorite of mine.  I've never really liked John Wayne ( my bad, i have seen Sons of Katie), but will give his movies a try.


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« #280 : January 18, 2017, 06:04:37 AM »

Agree

Got that on my to do list. Thanx...

Moorman
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« #281 : January 18, 2017, 06:05:40 AM »

Another couple of interesting AM's (American Western) films to add to your must see list Moorman:

Hombre
Rio Conchos
Day Of The Outlaw
The Bravados
Barquero

The best of the non Leone SP's (Spaghetti Westerns) to check out after your American Odyssey

The Mercenary
The Big Gundown
The Great Silence
A Bullet For The General
Vamos A Matar Companeros
Run, Man, Run
Face to Face
Death Rides a Horse
Day Of Anger
Tepepa
Keoma

Thanx for this list. I'm gonna be busy...lol

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« #282 : January 18, 2017, 06:26:55 AM »

Thanx for the additional movie list. I've always intended to further explore the western genre, and i'm about to go all in.  My experience soo far has mainly been limited to some westerns from 1980 onward, and the Leone sphagetti westerns.  I just recently went back and saw High Noon, The Westerner,  3:10 to Yuma (original), The Wild Bunch, and Major Dundee.  Gary Cooper is a favorite of mine.  I've never really liked John Wayne ( my bad, i have seen Sons of Katie), but will give his movies a try.



Sons of Kate Elder is a dumb movie. Don't judge Wayne based on that.  ;)


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« #283 : January 18, 2017, 06:32:15 AM »

Sons of Kate Elder is a dumb movie. Don't judge Wayne based on that.  ;)

Its not the movie, its John himself. He to him, any western that doesn't portray the west as pilgrims in stagecoachs fighting the indians, is not a western. When he panned both High Noon and 3:10 to Yuma, he confirmed that...

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« #284 : January 18, 2017, 06:33:03 AM »

Sons of Kate Elder is a dumb movie.

It's not. It is a good western done by people who know how to do such things.


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