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stanton
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« #300 : January 25, 2017, 02:34:19 PM »

You and I are more receptive to the oddball cult westerns like Johnny Guitar etc.

I had 62 listed because Liberty Valance and Ride the High Country are the last great old school Hollywood westerns.

Why these 2?
They mark the beginning of the twilight western phase (Lonely Are the Brave also), especially Ride the High Country, which set the patterns for a lot of westerns set after the turn of the century up to The Shootist (actually up to Heaven's Gate). But then, of course  one can view both as sort of an end.
But I think the term great old school Hollywood westerns might fit better for Katie Elder, El Dorado, True Grit and some others.

Johnny Guitar, yeah, it is pretty strange that so many here despise such a classic western from an estimated director.


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« #301 : January 25, 2017, 05:01:27 PM »

Stanton is so right about all this stuff. Case closed.



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« #302 : January 25, 2017, 05:34:28 PM »

an estimated director.
Good thing titoli isn't awake to rip you a new one. Of course, we all knew what you mean.

True Grit is a good place to draw the line--the time line, I could say--but you could go as late as Lawman, maybe. 1962 is much too early. You gotta be able to include Hombre and TG.



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« #303 : January 25, 2017, 11:48:43 PM »

I agree that this topic is murky and there isn't a clean cut off year (for example 1959 works much better for noir than an end date for the classic western). With that said, I don't know how True Grit or Lawman would be viewed as a classic hollywood western, they were more modern. Lawman has exploitation elements.

FWIW there wouldn't be any US westerns from 63-65 that would have made the list anyways.




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« #304 : January 26, 2017, 04:12:07 AM »

Quote
I agree that this topic is murky and there isn't a clean cut off year (for example 1959 works much better for noir than an end date for the classic western).



From the many and varied books written about Film Noir that the often quoted time frame that these films fit into is usually 1941 to 1958 some occasionally stretch to 1959. Who came came up with this initially, and why is it so strictly adhered too?
 
The more Noirs I watch the more I'm questioning this. I'm beginning to come around to a different thought, and that is that Classic American Film Noir stretched from say 1940 to 1968 (1968 being the last general use of B&W film in production) here is the breakdown by year of Black & White Noirs (there may be a few more to add in, in that 1959 to 1968 stretch:
 
1940 (5)
1941 (11)
1942 (5)
1943 (5)
1944 (18)
1945 (22)
1946 (42)
1947 (53)
1948 (43)
1949 (52)
1950 (57)
1951 (39)
1952 (26)
1953 (21)
1954 (26)
1955 (20)
1956 (19)
1957 (12)
1958 (7)
1959 (7)
1960 (2)
1961 (5)
1962 (6)
1963 (1)
1964 (4)
1965 (3)
1966 (2)
1967 (2)
1968 (1)
 
I'm also thinking now that the Color Film Noirs within this 1940-1968 time frame were the first Neo Noirs so that the two sub genres actually overlap. The catalyst for this new alignment is when I read a quote about Neo Noir that said that if the filmmakers made a conscience decision to film in black and white when color was the norm then it was an artistic decision and not one of necessity for budget purposes, Same the other way if B&W was the norm for low budget B Noirs then it was an artistic decision to film it color.
 
The color film Noir the first 30 years (again there maybe a few more in these early years but they as a whole really up ticked in the 1980s and 1990's):
 
1945 (1)
1947 (1)
1948 (1)
1953 (2)
1955 (3)
1956 (3)
1958 (1)
1966 (1)
1967 (1)
1969 (1)
1970 (2)
1971 (4)
1972 (1)
1973 (0)
1974 (2)


I'll post this also in Film Noir if anyone wants to continue the Noir discussion here: http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10920.msg186445#msg186445


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« #305 : February 05, 2017, 03:21:15 PM »

I have always considered TWB  a great western, not a great film.
By that I mean  it is a superb genre piece. FAFDM is in the same category.

For me, GBU and OUTW transcend the genre and are simply great films, masterpieces of cinema.

I agree with Mike Siegel about GIU LA TESTA. It is the one Leone with real emotion, due primarily to Morricone's incredible score.

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« #306 : February 05, 2017, 03:25:50 PM »

I saw the Extended English Language print at the Film Forum in NYC a while back.


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« #307 : February 05, 2017, 03:55:23 PM »

If you don't get any emotion from OUTITW and OUATIA, you're a cold blooded psycho. Which is cool, you know, but you're still on the wrong side of history.



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« #308 : February 05, 2017, 04:13:53 PM »

I have always considered TWB  a great western, not a great film.

Actually it is indeed both. And also transcends the genre. There are others ...


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« #309 : February 09, 2017, 10:09:15 PM »

Brutal and elegiac masterpiece.

Outlaws led by Pike Bishop on the Mexican-U.S. frontier face not only the passing of time, but bounty hunters {led by a former partner of Pike, Deke Thornton} and the Mexican army as well.

In 1969 Sam Peckinpah picked up the torch that Arthur Penn lit with 1967's Bonnie & Clyde, and literally poured gasoline on it to impact on cinema to the point that the shock wave is still being felt today. The death of the Motion Picture Production Code in 1967 ushered in a new era for cinema goers, it was a time for brave and intelligent directors to step up to the plate to deliver stark and emotive thunder, and with The Wild Bunch, director Sam Peckinpah achieved this by the shed load.

The Wild Bunch doesn't set out to be liked, it is a harsh eye opening perception of the Western genre, this is the other side of the coin to the millions of Westerns that whoop and holler as the hero gets the girl and rides off into the sunset. The Wild Bunch thematically is harshly sad for the protagonists, these are men out of their time, this is a despicable group of men, driven by greed and cynicism, they think of nothing to selling arms to a vile amoral army across the border.

The film opens with a glorious credit sequence as we witness the Bunch riding into town, the picture freeze frames in black & white for each credit offering, from here on in we know that we are to witness something different, and yes, something very special. The film is book-ended by carnage, and sandwiched in the middle is an equally brilliant train robbery, yet the impact of these sequences is only enhanced because the quality of the writing is so good (Walon Green and Roy N. Sickner alongside Peckinpah). There's no pointless discussions or scene filling explanations of the obvious. Each passage, in each segment, is thought thru to gain credibility for the shattering and bloody climax. There is of course one massive and intriguing question that hangs over the film; how did Peckinpah make such low moral men appear as heroes? Well I'm not here to tell you that because you need to witness the film in its entirety for yourself. But it's merely one cheeky point of note in a truly majestic piece of work. A film that even today stands up as one of the greatest American films ever made. 10/10

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« #310 : February 10, 2017, 02:24:29 AM »

There is of course one massive and intriguing question that hangs over the film; how did Peckinpah make such low moral men appear as heroes?

Perfect question. And the answer is probably the reason why it is my favorite film. It is a mix of Peckinpah's background regarding family and education, as well as his talent and taste as a filmmaker.
His overall theme of the dying west of course comes from his upbringing in Madera County (RIDE THE HIGH COUNTRY), there is even a "Peckinpah-mountain". When he was a little boy in the early 1930s, the "frontier" of course was already gone, but some of his family and others still sort of lived that lifestyle and told many stories as well...

Much unlike many other "western directors" Sam had studied drama. He started in theater, as a stage director. His favorite writer was Tennessee Williams and I can feel him in many of Peckinpah's films. Sam was a brilliant re-writer, he took mediocre (STRAW DOGS, RTHC) or even good (WILD BUNCH, JUNIOR BONNER) scripts and enhanced them with his personal vision quite a bit. WILD BUNCH works on all levels: as an action-epic, for those who can't look behind the characters. As farewell-song to the dying west and especially as character study of Shakespirian proportions: William Holden's Oscar-worthy portrayal of a man who outlived himself and is faced with wrong or bad decisions makes the film. I love Lee Marvin, but I'm not sure the impact would have been quite the same. Holden WAS Pike Bishop at that time. He had it all behind him, he drank too much and he had some dark spots in his life (a man dying because he drove his Ferrari too fast for instance). He told Warren Oates stories about his lost love Audrey Hepburn for instance on the set. He probably still loved her in 1968! 14 years after their romance. The intensity of his performance combined with Sam's direction was right on spot, about the best and most believable I've ever seen. So we (who have feelings for him) feel with him without even knowing it and get caught up in this story about a man dealing with his own guilt, who is a killer by all means - as the rest of his bunch. Very complex. It is one of the very few westerns I experienced in the cinema where parts of the audience actually cry at the end (RTHC, CABLE HOGUE also are members of that club, SEARCHERS & LIBERTY VALANCE too of course and few others). Peckinpah is my favorite director because most of his characters on screen are more than just "characters", they are real people. Women for instance love JUNIOR BONNER for this reason. He wanted to see the truth and he did catch it very often, also he was technically on the highest level - the best of stage & cinema combined :).



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« #311 : February 10, 2017, 05:16:44 AM »

I think that, honestly, Spikeopath, before posting your old reviews in this forum, you should read at least read some of the previous contributions to the debate when you write about important movies like this one. Apparently you don't care about it (and so I wonder what are you planning to do here) so I'm forced, as an invitation to do a real contribution, to resurrect some point of debate raised in the previous pages of this thread.

"...this is a despicable group of men, driven by greed and cynicism, they think of nothing to selling arms to a vile amoral army across the border....There is of course one massive and intriguing question that hangs over the film; how did Peckinpah make such low moral men appear as heroes?

Not hard to understand: by cheating, adopting the usual hollywooden tricks which make sense only for distracted viewers. The choice to suicide themselves is absurd and makes no rhyme or reason with the preceding behaviour and assertions of the characters. But it is intended to glorify them and make the less smart viewers happy.  Me and d&d illustrated these points in the previous pages, if you're interested.

« : February 10, 2017, 05:18:59 AM titoli »

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« #312 : February 10, 2017, 05:26:07 AM »

I think that, honestly, Spikeopath, before posting your old reviews in this forum, you should read at least read some of the previous contributions to the debate when you write about important movies like this one. Apparently you don't care about it (and so I wonder what are you planning to do here) so I'm forced, as an invitation to do a real contribution, to resurrect some point of debate raised in the previous pages of this thread.

"...this is a despicable group of men, driven by greed and cynicism, they think of nothing to selling arms to a vile amoral army across the border....There is of course one massive and intriguing question that hangs over the film; how did Peckinpah make such low moral men appear as heroes?

Not hard to understand: by cheating, adopting the usual hollywooden tricks which make sense only for distracted viewers. The choice to suicide themselves is absurd and makes no rhyme or reason with the preceding behaviour and assertions of the characters. But it is intended to glorify them and make the less smart viewers happy.  Me and d&d illustrated these points in the previous pages, if you're interested.

First, i don't know if thats Spike's review or one he pulled from imdb.  Second. The ending DID make sense if  you look at that ego that the Wild Bunch had.  How dare that general take one of " theirs" and degrade him like that.  The way they thought, it made perfect sense for them to go out like that.

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« #313 : February 10, 2017, 05:35:06 AM »

I think that, honestly, Spikeopath, before posting your old reviews in this forum, you should read at least read some of the previous contributions to the debate when you write about important movies like this one. Apparently you don't care about it (and so I wonder what are you planning to do here) so I'm forced, as an invitation to do a real contribution, to resurrect some point of debate raised in the previous pages of this thread.

"...this is a despicable group of men, driven by greed and cynicism, they think of nothing to selling arms to a vile amoral army across the border....There is of course one massive and intriguing question that hangs over the film; how did Peckinpah make such low moral men appear as heroes?

Not hard to understand: by cheating, adopting the usual hollywooden tricks which make sense only for distracted viewers. The choice to suicide themselves is absurd and makes no rhyme or reason with the preceding behaviour and assertions of the characters. But it is intended to glorify them and make the less smart viewers happy.  Me and d&d illustrated these points in the previous pages, if you're interested.

This won't change his view of the film. So he would post it anyway.

In that case I think you are both wrong about how the film works. Neither is Pike an amoral men, the film's main point is how he tries to deal with his high moral claims, and only if you understand Pike's last choice, the ending can enfold its massive emotional power. And believe me, it is all understandable, but not that easy to see, because Peckinpah does not use the "usual hollywooden tricks".

You only illustrated that you don't look deep enough.

But then one can understand TWB also on a pure emotional level, without actually being able to explain it, but if one wants to understand one will one day.


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« #314 : February 10, 2017, 05:42:25 AM »

First, i don't know if thats Spike's review or one he pulled from imdb.  Second. The ending DID make sense if  you look at that ego that the Wild Bunch had.  How dare that general take one of " theirs" and degrade him like that.  The way they thought, it made perfect sense for them to go out like that.

It's spike's review from IMDb, the IMDb boards are going down like the Titanic, he's saving his own reviews here, but titoli has a point too, spike's a good debater, we'll all have fun once things settle out, there should be more IMDb refugees coming along to our lifeboat also before too long.  O0


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