The Wild Bunch (1969)

[noodles_leone]

Speaking of which, how good of a movie IS The Lady From Shanghai?  I got it on my to do list...lol

http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11277.0

 

[titoli]

There's no reason for you, for me I understand what they do. And there are different reasons for Holden, for Borgnine and for the brothers. The brothers maybe don't understand at all, maybe only for the "Why not?", but they do.

Ok, there are different reasons: a pity though it is never explained or hinted what they may be.

And even if there were no explainable reason, sometimes people do stuff they would never do the other day, o never if they had a few minutes more to think about it. But in TWB I have no question about that, and because that the film is able to overwhelm me.
If you don't understand the film on an emotional level, than of course it may only be a strange or odd movie with some technical brilliance.

A pity though too that the irrational thing they decide to do is to redeem themselves in the eyes  of the viewers (the less smart ones, of course). What if instead they decided that Angel has nothing to do with them and that Mapache is a sob as they are? What would happen is that  you wouldn't have the good bad gringos turning into heroes and a more realistic movie bound to bomb, or almost, at the box office. (Not counting an excuse less to do the slow motion orgy). These are the usual hollywooden recipes of popular culture, which have nothing to do with realism: which is good, to a point: but there lies the difference between Art and pop culture.

[uncknown]

Actually it is indeed both. And also transcends the genre. There are others ...

I admit to a possible bias in my evaluation.
For years, decades TWB was hailed by critics a  masterpiece while Leone's films were all but ignored. (If he was acknowledged at all it would be OUTIW - GBU was totally ignored).

SO, I did kinda resent the film for reasons not having anything to do with its merits.
But, having seen it recently on the big screen, in 70mm, and the WB special edition dvd I am sticking with my opinion:
great western, not a great film like OUTIW
bruce marshall

[Moorman]

Great movie, great ending. Can't wait to get the Blu Ray version...

[Spikeopath]

Moorman suggests dumping all your reviews into a "Spikeopath's Western Reviews/Archive" new topic much like titoli has his "lil Duce" reviews, then we can retrieve them in a "trickle in" to the Western Index at our leisure, it would save me work too, it took about an hour and a half to index what I did this morning.

 

Whatever you think best and whatever is easier for you mods. I only want that the index sections show as many Westerns as possible, that there be links available for anyone interested in a new viewing - or having themselves seen a little discussed one can post and damn my review for it   

I guess I should postpone my plans to bring all my noir reviews over then 

Not here to make waves, just looking for a Western loving home to lay my head, and if the noir gang make a niche in the OT section then I'll obviously be active there. But not if it's going to cheese any of you guys off.

 

[cigar joe]

Whatever you think best and whatever is easier for you mods. I only want that the index sections show as many Westerns as possible, that there be links available for anyone interested in a new viewing - or having themselves seen a little discussed one can post and damn my review for it  

Agree

I guess I should postpone my plans to bring all my noir reviews over then  

No, do the New Thread like titoli did (http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10905.msg150938#msg150938) and get them all saved there before who knows what happens on IMDb, we can roll them out two or three at a time a day to the list

Not here to make waves, just looking for a Western loving home to lay my head, and if the noir gang make a niche in the OT section then I'll obviously be active there. But not if it's going to cheese any of you guys off.

 

Don't worry people are figuring you out, just do a slow roll out, two pages of new Western posts all reviews was overwhelming to Moorman and a few others. Moorman just joined about a week or two before the IMDb debacle, he is just new to Westerns and got bowled over by your blitz, lol.

[titoli]

great western, not a great film like OUTIW

What is it that doesn't persuade you?

[stanton]

STANTON FTW!!!!!!!!

Äääähhh ... ? Fuck The What? Or what?

[noodles_leone]

For The Win

[stanton]

Ok, there are different reasons: a pity though it is never explained or hinted what they may be.

I prefer movies which don't explain me everything in dialogues, but without these all explaining dialogues the films are of course more ambiguous, and risk that some don't get it. In the end if there are no obvious and simple explanations everyone is free to find some fitting ones. And when you don't get it you can't assume that others shouldn't get i either
You don't find them, the film does not work for you, that's ok, as long as there are enough other which work for you. But the fact that TWB belongs to the rare breed of films of which some think it is the best ever is telling enough for me that others also have no problems to understand the ending and anything else.

I think it is a good sign that TWB isn't hailed by everyone, that there are still debates about it, which means the film still "lives".

A pity though too that the irrational thing they decide to do is to redeem themselves in the eyes  of the viewers (the less smart ones, of course). What if instead they decided that Angel has nothing to do with them and that Mapache is a sob as they are? What would happen is that  you wouldn't have the good bad gringos turning into heroes and a more realistic movie bound to bomb, or almost, at the box office. (Not counting an excuse less to do the slow motion orgy). These are the usual hollywooden recipes of popular culture, which have nothing to do with realism: which is good, to a point: but there lies the difference between Art and pop culture.

1. One of the strenghts of the ending is of course that there is some irrationality about it, which is then boosted by the irrational directing of the overdone bloodshed. In the ending (beginning with the brothel scene) every open conflict and motive of TWB flows together, and then everything explodes. And that is absolutely fantastic.

2. What if Charles Bronson would have been killed in the first scene of OUTW? Then we would have got a more realistic movie etc etc ... also one we probably wouldn't have cared for.

3. TWB is not a realistic movie, and I'm actually not very interested in realistic genre movies.

4. TWB is art as long as some people love it, as long as TWB "speaks" to them.

[stanton]

For The Win

Ahh, never read that term. I've checked its meaning, thanks for the flowers ...

[titoli]

I prefer movies which don't explain me everything in dialogues, but without these all explaining dialogues the films are of course more ambiguous, and risk that some don't get it. In the end if there are no obvious and simple explanations everyone is free to find some fitting ones. And when you don't get it you can't assume that others shouldn't get i either

But what I am remarking is that the fact that no explanations for (irrational) behaviour is given it is just a good excuse for letting the movie have the redeeming turn of plot and make the supposedly "Wild" Bunch a happy gang of choirboys. Which is what Hollywood customarily does. The irrationality works always one way, never the other, except in more adult approaches.

I think it is a good sign that TWB isn't hailed by everyone, that there are still debates about it, which means the film still "lives".

You should translate this in deutsch.

1. One of the strenghts of the ending is of course that there is some irrationality about it, which is then boosted by the irrational directing of the overdone bloodshed.

Well, thank God, after more than 20 pages you're finally admitting as much.

2. What if Charles Bronson would have been killed in the first scene of OUTW? Then we would have got a more realistic movie etc etc ... also one we probably wouldn't have cared for.

And what if he hadn't been wounded at all? I don't understand the connection, sorry.

3. TWB is not a realistic movie, and I'm actually not very interested in realistic genre movies.

That doesn't mean it has to eschew logic.

4. TWB is art as long as some people love it, as long as TWB "speaks" to them.

Well, then you'll have to admit that Shoeshine Redemption or ET are art as well. Well, I don't.

[noodles_leone]

0. The fact that "Hollywood movies does one thing" doesn't validate or invalidates a particular choice in a particular movie.
1. What Stanton may be saying is the simple and well known fact that people are irrational. It took approximately 50 years after Adam Smith to economists to get that, so it's an easy mistake from your part.
3. Everybody agree there.
4. ET is art.

All in all, this is quite a simple debate and you guys are getting lost in philosophical arguments that lead nowhere. Titoli is acting like D&D here by trying to answer the "Would I have done what the characters do in the end?" which is off topic and pointless.

There are lots of stuff that can be criticized in TWB (which is at least in my top 50), and I think Titoli has a point in saying the movie is a tad hypocritical... but "believability" isn't one of them.

[Dust Devil]

I haven't seen it in a while, you guys are gona make me rewatch it.

[titoli]

I haven't seen it in a while, you guys are gona make me rewatch it.

I started discussing it in depth (but there was other criticism even before by late firecracker and granpachum) in 2008 (sided successively by d&d): wtf you were in the meantime?