The movie's biggest flaws/your pet peeves?

[drinkanddestroy]

Haha! It's easy to say when living in the USA where you still have room! We're in old Europe. There are people and stuff all over the place. I'm not concerned because I'll be buried under OUATITW's arch near Monument Valley.

whether or not you'r concerned about where your corpse winds up doesn't matter. what matters is that there are people who do, people who bought plots, and the gov't shouldn't be allowed to say, "there's not enough room for people who paid money for plots to keep them, we're moving them all." There's always room for whatever you want it for, whatever you respect. France doesn't have much respect for private property or bodies of the deceased.

If the issue is room, why don't they really clear out ALL bodies of everyone dead more than 99 years? I mean, including all the kings and presidents et al? Something tells me they're not really clearing out ALL graves. Just the people that they think no one cares about.

The full story in this case is crazy. Just one example of the craziness: the French gov't demanded that in order to have the body moved, they'd need consent of all living descendants of the deceased, and proof of death of the other descendants. That's right, birth and death certificates for all descendants of someone who died in 1870, and whom a genealogist the family enlisted figured had over a thousand descendants. Eventually, the gov't relented on that particular demand.

The result may be that anyone who cares, for religious or other reasons, about the fate of their corpse of that of their loved ones, may simply decide not to be buried in France. Which, after all, may be the gov't's goal.

[noodles_leone]

whether or not you'r concerned about where your corpse winds up doesn't matter. what matters is that there are people who do, people who bought plots, and the gov't shouldn't be allowed to say, "there's not enough room for people who paid money for plots to keep them, we're moving them all." There's always room for whatever you want it for, whatever you respect. France doesn't have much respect for private property or bodies of the deceased.

If the issue is room, why don't they really clear out ALL bodies of everyone dead more than 99 years? I mean, including all the kings and presidents et al? Something tells me they're not really clearing out ALL graves. Just the people that they think no one cares about.

The full story in this case is crazy. Just one example of the craziness: the French gov't demanded that in order to have the body moved, they'd need consent of all living descendants of the deceased, and proof of death of the other descendants. That's right, birth and death certificates for all descendants of someone who died in 1870, and whom a genealogist the family enlisted figured had over a thousand descendants. Eventually, the gov't relented on that particular demand.

The result may be that anyone that cares, for religious or other reasons, about the fate of their corpse of that of their loved ones, may simply decide not to be buried in France. Which, after all, may be the gov't's goal.

You convinced me. I'll be offline for a while, building a cemetery in my garden. I won't accept dead kings in it though, because like you said, they already have their own spot.

[drinkanddestroy]

You convinced me. I'll be offline for a while, building a cemetery in my garden. I won't accept dead kings in it though, because like you said, they already have their own spot.

If I've convinced you, then I'm starting to doubt myself.

[noodles_leone]

If I've convinced you, then I'm starting to doubt myself.

 


I'm messing with you but concessions (is that the right word?) here in France have had a limited time for decades if not centuries, as far as I know (I'm not very aware of that topic).

[drinkanddestroy]

I'm messing with you but concessions (is that the right word?) here in France have had a limited time for decades if not centuries, as far as I know (I'm not very aware of that topic).

if you really wanna know, I can quote you a few paragraphs about it from a much longer article on this story

[noodles_leone]

Please do!

[drinkanddestroy]

Please do!

ok, I'll copy this from an article I saw in an Orthodox Jewish newspaper http://hamodia.com/2013/10/30/french-policy-challenged-in-families-battle-for-kvod-meisim/
(but I'll translate the Hebrew words into English)

The French capital has a long, enigmatic and macabre history of disinterment and reburial and a very cavalier attitude toward the sanctity of human remains.

The now defunct Holy Innocents’ Cemetery (French: Cimetière des Innocents) was located in the center of Paris and was used from the Middle Ages until the late 18th century. In the 14th and 15th centuries, to relieve the overcrowding of the mass graves in Cimetière des Innocents, Parisians built arched structures called charniers or charnel houses along the cemetery walls and bones from the graves were dug up and deposited in them. Owing to health concerns, this ancient burial ground, along with 10 more of the city’s overcrowded cemeteries, were closed just before the French Revolution and the bones of over six million deceased Parisians were transferred to what are now known as the Catacombs. Cemeteries were then banned from the Paris city limits.

In 1824 the Montparnasse Cemetery (Cimetière du Montparnasse) originally known as Le Cimetière du Sud (Southern Cemetery) was created from three farms. At the time these farms were well outside the precincts of the capital. In fact some of the new “suburban” cemeteries were so distant at the time that the graves of several famous French men and women were moved to them to make them more popular with the bourgeois Parisians.

Only the city is authorized to sell plots; they cannot be bought and sold between individuals like property. Plots can be purchased  for 10, 30, or 50 years with the option to renew, or “en perpétuité” (forever).

Despite the fact that Giacomo Tedesco purchased his family plot in-perpetuity, the Paris municipal government exercised its legal right to disinter remains after 100 years and removed the bones of the Tedescos to the ossuary at Pere Lachaise where they were kept in drawers in an underground vault. Mrs. Therisa  (Yirat) Tedesco, who died in 1867, was disinterred in 1999. Her remains had been without proper Jewish burial for 14 years and her husband, who died in 1870, was disinterred in 2002. His remains had been without proper Jewish burial for 11 years.

Before the disinterment, the Paris municipality drafted a letter apprising the recipient of their plan. Ludicrously, the letter was sent to where the records indicated next-of-kin would be living at a non-existent address! When the first letter was, unsurprisingly, returned unopened it was re-sent to a descendant of the Jewish burial society — who may or may not have been Jewish but who, in any event, did not respond. With this tacit “approval” of the responsible parties the municipality proceeded to break the tombstone, remove the coffin and move the contents to the ossuary. Curiously, bones of two other people were discovered in the coffin containing Giacomo Tedesco’s remains and this would contribute to the bureaucratic boondoggle that was to follow.

(if you wanna read the rest of the article, you can click the link above... I'd be happy to translate any of the italicized words, which are Hebrew)

[chris]

...a Jewish cemetery would never be allowed to be dug up in a million years...

I am not doubting that Jewish cemeteries have been moved over the years. I am just saying Jewish law wouldn't allow it for this reason  - just to sell the land and tell the families to move the bodies. The way the movie has it, the synagogue sent letters to the families - we're moving the cemetery, move the bodies. That would never have happened. Never ever ever. Ever...

Sure, Jewish cemeteries have been moved...

There's no indication that the cemetery was in danger of being desecrated... it was up to the family of each dead person to move each body to wherever they wanted to buy a plot. The synagogue was selling the cemetery and telling all the families that had bought plots and buried loves ones there, "time to move." That would never happen.

It's a fair point that relocating Jewish cemeteries is not common.

Max and the rest of the gang do not seem to have been particularly religious.  From 'The Hoods':

The rabbi said, “God bless you gentlemen.  I'll say a prayer for you.”  I should have left well enough alone, but in Yiddish I answered, “It really isn't necessary, Rabbi. We're agnostics.”

The rabbi's “God bless you gentlemen...” was to thank Max and Noodles for covering the cost of a burial plot and funeral for an unexpected death in a very poor family. It reminded Noodles of the like predicament his family was in years ago and I'm not sure what happens to those who die with insufficient money to purchase a burial plot and for whom benefactors can't be found.

Putting religious aspects to one side, there's possibly a clause or something in the small print in the grave purchase contract which covers relocation and in many countries the authorities can obtain compulsory purchase orders where, for example, modernisation is needed or better transport links are required.

Over the years communities move from place to place.  The family of the real Noodles and his Jewish neighbours may have moved from the Lower East Side to Brooklyn to the Bronx.  If many Jews moved out of the area and were replaced by others with different religious beliefs it's possible that there were insufficient people to support the synagogue and the cemetery.

In the movie Noodles gets out of his car and looks around.  Many of the shops near to the synagogue are boarded up and there is visible evidence that the owners have relocated:




The notice on the synagogue indicates that services may have ceased:





The cemetery adjoining the synagogue is very small and possibly there is no space available for further burials.




In the movie we are simply told that the Beth Israel Cemetery had been sold. In the shooting script, there are a few further details:

"A sign announces the strides of progress and the monument of modernity that will soon take the place of graves and stones and corpses."

The script then goes to the probably not filmed scene where Noodles enters an office inside the synagogue. Noodles is told that there was a time limit to respond to letters and it has expired.  Unclaimed caskets have gone to the Bronx.  He is then told that the bodies of Max, Cockeye and Patsy have been reinterred at Riverdale.

    

[drinkanddestroy]

Chris - of course the gang is not religious! Not in the least - the movie is explicit about that (and the book even more so). But that is not the point - the cemetery is owned by the synagogue, by religious people, and they would not sell a cemetery. Of course, neighborhoods change. There are plenty of Jewish cemeteries in neighborhoods where Jews are no longer there. But the cemeteries don't move just because the community does. The cemetery would only be moved if, as in the case of some places in Europe today, the cemeteries are actually being descrated - there are many cities in Europe where Jewish cemeteries are destroyed, there was one in  Belarus recently that was descrated to make way for a soccer stadium, one of many sad exampled - and only in cases like those would the bodies be moved, to prevent further descration... But they'd never move the cemetery just because a Jewish community moves out of a neighborhood. I doubt very much that you can find me a single instance of this happening in America.

[drinkanddestroy]

Anyway, I think I've said all I can on this topic. If you don't agree with me, that's fine :-) but as I said, this piece of bullshit in the movie doesn't bother me anyway ;-)

[dave jenkins]

Reading through this thread it is apparent that when chris writes "Jewish Cemetery" he means something very different than when Drink uses the term. After pages of discussion, the semantic obscufication is dispelled. It appears, then, that both sides were arguing correctly from their respective positions all along. The end.

[noodles_leone]

Also, Lenny Kravitz.

[drinkanddestroy]

For Lenny's sake, lets hope he got one set of genes from the neck up and the other from the waist down.....

[chris]

My final words on the subject, hopefully, are regarding Noodles' conversation with the Secretary of the Synagogue. If this scene had been filmed and left in the movie, it may have explained the situation more fully.

From what we know of this scene it seems clear to me that the Synagogue's original letter was simply advance notification to relatives that the cemetery was being relocated to the Bronx. The letter contained a deadline date and if the relatives had any concerns over the relocation or wished for reinterment at a different cemetery they should contact the Synagogue before the deadline date.

 

[drinkanddestroy]

I believe that the scene where Noodles visits the synagogue and the rabbi tells him that the letters were sent out eight months ago and that the bodies of Max, Cockeye, and Patsy were already relocated, actually was filmed. I'm not sure if it was deleted cuz Leone decided it was unnecessary, or if Leone wanted it in but just had to delete it along with others scenes he had to delete reluctantly to get down to 229 minutes. Anyway, just having read the scene from the script, I don't think it was necessary to keep that scene in; I think that when Noodles tells Fat Moe what the rabbi told him, that suffices, and it's not necessary to show the rabbi telling it to Noodles.

However, with Leone, of course, it's never just about story. It's about the artwork. The filming, the music, the construction, the production design, etc. etc. Therefore, even if that scene is unnecessary to explain the plot, that doesn't mean the movie wouldn't be better without it... And who knows, maybe one day, if we really get ALL the deleted scenes, we'll know for sure 

Maybe, in the not-to-distant future, all DVD/BRD's will allow you to make fan edits with seamless branching; of course, some discs already have that, eg. OUATITW allows us to choose between two versions, but I am talking about a full fan edit version, allowing us to choose whatever we want... we can start with the 229 mins. as a base, and then have a menu come up and show each new added scene in OUATIA, and whether or not we want it; we can have GBU that allows us to skip the Cave scene; and some fans may want to skip some of the other recently restored scenes, but e.g. keep in the Fort scene.... One day, maybe, there'll be no need for "bootleg" fan edits. Let's just hope that day comes sooner rather than later