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Author Topic: Mistakes in Frayling's DVD Commentaries  (Read 25274 times)
drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2012, 05:28:14 AM »

you know about the six degrees of Kevin Bacon. Well I think that no discussion on these boards is more than six degrees away from a discussion on High Noon; that's what everything always comes back to. Every time  Wink

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« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2012, 08:47:20 AM »

I just watched Frayling's commentary to DYS, and there is something which I wanted to address, it's not a factual mistake but it's something I disagree with Frayling on.

He says that the final flashback is somehow shared by John and Juan. I don't know how or why he believes so.

If I recall correctly, he got the idea from Leone himself in his conversations with Noel Simsolo. If you're interested I can find and translate the exact quote in it. But I agree with you: it doesn't work.

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« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2012, 08:55:16 AM »

Thanks for the Parkinson link, I have the tape buried around here.
I found an interview where Wayne states 'Both Howard and I couldn't stand the scenes
presenting a Sheriff running around crying for help (...) He appeared to be weak
.'
(or words to that effect, it is in a different apartment)

Well as for Hawks, * it is easy to see why he could never like such a film. Hawks
was expert no.1 when it came to 'professionals-in-film'. At least his more personal
films like ONLY ANGELS HAVE WINGS. He himself was a pro and mastered everything he
tried in life.
*Same with Wayne. And he and Kramer or Zinnemann ? No way. Way to left for his taste Smiley

I try to get used to the fact that almost every classic film ever made gets his bashing
here in this forum. I'm working on it, it's not that easy Smiley I try Smiley
It is the big difference to a nice talk with fellow cineasts. If one can't agree on
a film or it becomes obvious that opinions lie miles apart, the discussion
shifts to another film or subject. There's no point in persuading someone
to appreciate something. Or the other way around, just because someone
says 'no good' you won't cross out films from your Top50 list.

HIGH NOON is not even on my Top 20-western list. Too much dialogue for my taste. Still it is
a classic and a masterpiece. As a film historian I watch and judge films (almost)
always with a partly contemporary view. There's a reason why the film was such
a success for decades. In 1952 the film was outstanding. Besides Ford, Winchester 73 and very
few others there wasn't much (significant) going on around that time.
The music is great, I love Kramer & Zinnemann, Grace Kelly Smiley,
van Cleef, Floyd Crosby ... and Cooper is great. Difficult part.

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« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2012, 02:02:27 PM »



I try to get used to the fact that almost every classic film ever made gets his bashing
here in this forum. I'm working on it, it's not that easy Smiley I try Smiley
It is the big difference to a nice talk with fellow cineasts. If one can't agree on
a film or it becomes obvious that opinions lie miles apart, the discussion
shifts to another film or subject. There's no point in persuading someone
to appreciate something. Or the other way around, just because someone
says 'no good' you won't cross out films from your Top50 list.



You really should get used to this, Mike.

Bashing a classic is always more effective than bashing a film everybody hates anyway.

But I found it quite refreshing that in forums there are absolutely no holy cows.

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uncknown
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« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2012, 02:09:50 PM »

Leone himself said in an interview that Juan and Sean shared the flashback.
it's still a bit overcooked as a concept
bruce

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« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2012, 02:13:35 PM »

High School? Hell, he doesn't have any friends NOW.
Grin

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« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2012, 06:54:54 PM »

Leone himself said in an interview that Juan and Sean shared the flashback.
it's still a bit overcooked as a concept
bruce

I'd like to see a source for that. Cuz I see no justification for it. Juan has no knowledge of Mallory's past (unlike the final flashbacks in other Leone movies, where the other person involved was either present at the time (Frank) or at least aware of what happened (Mortimer)

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« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2012, 07:39:30 AM »

I'd like to see a source for that. Cuz I see no justification for it. Juan has no knowledge of Mallory's past (unlike the final flashbacks in other Leone movies, where the other person involved was either present at the time (Frank) or at least aware of what happened (Mortimer)

Maybe they shared a psychic bond of some kind. Cheesy

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drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2012, 07:18:02 PM »

If you read Frayling's Spaghetti Westerns, the  paragraph  that begins on the bottom of p. 197 and continues on the top of p. 198 , says that the final flashback of OUATITW  was done with a painted backdrop of Monument Valley (as was the sequence where Sam rides his buggy through the rail gang). I don't know about the sequence with Sam, but based on all the people on this board who say they've vistited the arch in Monument Valley, that seems to be another mistake by Frayling.

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« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2012, 07:53:05 PM »

That arch scene flashback WAS ABSOLUTELY filmed in Monument Valley.  The arch remnants are still there, at that same location.  I've been there, took quite a few photos.  There's even a block from the arch on my mantlepiece.



What still riles me the most was him being so specific about a hand actor for the stubby middle finger of Van Cleef in GBU, which of course was totally wrong, and readily verifiable.  Sounds like my mom telling Mrs. Cusser how she took my knocked-out tooth, wrapped it in a paper towel soaked in milk, so that it could be re-implanted.  Mrs. Cusser was duly impressed.  However, I had to tell Mrs. Cusser that my tooth was NEVER knocked out at all, mom had it all wrong (my tooth was knocked, back, she bungled it by not taking me to the emergency room, so she made aup a fake heroic story  - see Liberty Vanance)

« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 07:58:50 PM by Cusser » Logged
drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2012, 08:02:14 PM »


What still riles me the most was him being so specific about a hand actor for the stubby middle finger of Van Cleef in GBU, which of course was totally wrong, and readily verifiable.  Sounds like my mom telling Mrs. Cusser how she took my knocked-out tooth, wrapped it in a paper towel soaked in milk, so that it could be re-implanted.  Mrs. Cusser was duly impressed.  However, I had to tell Mrs. Cusser that my tooth was NEVER knocked out at all, mom had it all wrong (my tooth was knocked, back, she bungled it by not taking me to the emergency room, so she made aup a fake heroic story  - see Liberty Vanance)

haha yeah I recently watched FAFDM again, in that scene just before the bank robbery in El Paso, you see Van Cleef wave to Eastwood from the window, the top of his middle finger is clearly chopped off.

Anyway, for now let's use this thread to correct any mistakes in Frayling's works. I have the ultimate respect and appreciation for Frayling's work, but it's important that the mistakes be corrected for the record.

I am not sure exactly how this should be compiled: (whether we should separate it by movie, or by the particular work or chapter, etc.); writing a new comment every time we come across a mistake, without any sort of order, doesn't seem to be the best way to organize it. So maybe eventually once we compile lots of them, we can put it in proper order. For now, I guess we'll just write 'em all here).

« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 08:10:49 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2013, 01:03:39 AM »

I wouldn't say this is a mistake, just something that I disagree with him on.
In the DVD commentary for TGTBTU, during the scenes where Tuco is forced to march through the desert, and then Blondie has to march through the desert, Frayling states that Tuco is the tougher/stronger character of the two because he managed to march through the desert without collapsing [like Blondie did from heat exhaustion or stroke]. But cut to the Tuco torture scene, and Tuco breaks under that pressure revealing the name of the cemetery. When Blondie [or Joe] is tortured in FOD by the Rojo's, he doesn't give in by revealing the location of Marisol and her family, he just continues to take the beatings, gets the strength to escape, train and build himself, and come back to defeat the Rojos. I think this shows Blondie to be the tougher character of the two.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 01:04:59 AM by Senza » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2013, 01:32:39 AM »

I wouldn't say this is a mistake, just something that I disagree with him on.
In the DVD commentary for TGTBTU, during the scenes where Tuco is forced to march through the desert, and then Blondie has to march through the desert, Frayling states that Tuco is the tougher/stronger character of the two because he managed to march through the desert without collapsing [like Blondie did from heat exhaustion or stroke]. But cut to the Tuco torture scene, and Tuco breaks under that pressure revealing the name of the cemetery. When Blondie [or Joe] is tortured in FOD by the Rojo's, he doesn't give in by revealing the location of Marisol and her family, he just continues to take the beatings, gets the strength to escape, train and build himself, and come back to defeat the Rojos. I think this shows Blondie to be the tougher character of the two.

you cannot compare Tuco against the Eastwood character of FOD. Although it's very loosely the same character, there is no way you can make that comparison; Frayling's statement in the GBU commentary was comparing Tuco vs. Blondie, it had nothing to do with Monco or Joe

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« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2013, 01:36:53 AM »

I understand what you're saying, and I'd hate to be the guy with the unpopular opinion or trying to disagree with everybody but to me they're the same character.

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« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2014, 01:32:10 AM »

I just watched FOD again, without the commentary.

Now, I definitely remember Frayling saying I don't remember if it was on the dvd commentary, or if it was in some other video, or in his book; but he absolutely said it somewhere that when the Rojos and Baxters are shooting it out in the cemetery while TMWNN is looking for the gold in the Rojos' cellar by tapping the barrels with his gun, there is a symmetry in the editing as the movie cuts back and forth from the cemetery to the cellar: the number of shots and number of taps are the same in each cut. For example, it's like, TMWNN will tap the barrel 4 times, then we'll cut back to the cemetery and hear 4 shots; then TMWNN will tap the barrel twice, and then we'll cut back to the cemetery and hear two shots, etc....

It's a nice idea, but the only problem is that it's not true. The Number of shots and number of taps are not the same. The pace of the editing does vary; eg. at some points, the camera holds on TMWNN for a while, then holds on the goings-on cemetery for a while; and at other points, there is very quick cutting back-and-forth between two locations. But there is no symmetry in the number of shots.

(I watched the Ripley's version; I assume it's the same editing as the version Frayling would have seen; I can double-check it with the MGM version at some point...)

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