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Author Topic: analysis on jill  (Read 14000 times)
liipuhu
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« on: July 16, 2004, 06:48:42 AM »

I would like to hear your thoughts on jill.
what kind character is she?
what are her general motives and thoughts that lead her toward her actions?
 after i watched OUATITW i felt puzzled by jill and especially her scene with frank. the other characters seem more straight forward in a way. any thoughts?

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DJIMBO
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2004, 11:37:00 AM »

this is my interpretation:

She is put in situation where she is expecting an easy ride compared to being a prostitute.

Its very tempting to accept defeat and become Frank's missus.

But ultimately she realises the 'tracks of progress' and the moral code of not shacking up with the guy who killed her husband.

She is progressive and incredibly hot. but perhaps thats just the hormonal young man in me. Grin

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dave jenkins
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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2004, 10:46:11 PM »

Djimbo has some good points (especially the one about Jill being "incredibly hot"). Now here is my take:

Jill is a stock character, "the hooker with a heart of gold," as we used to say, also known as "the tart with a heart."

All the characters in OUATITW are well-known types: the implacable avenger, the black-hearted nemesis, the corrupt tycoon (to list other examples). We recognize such types from the many examples we've seen of them in film and literature.

The psychology of such characters is less important to an audience than the need for those characters to fulfill their respective roles. Tarts need to be tarty, avengers need to avenge. Motives are little more than stage properties.

What is interesting about Leone's use of these different types is the unique way they interact. To take one example (since the subject is Jill), Harmonica's "courtship" of Jill: his midnight "serenade" recieves gunshots in reply; next morning, Harmonica seems on the verge of ravishing Jill when in fact he is only altering her clothing to make her a fit decoy; later, he enters her bathing chamber, but instead of seducing her he fires out windows to kill Frank's men. In this way, Harmonica, even while appearing to fulfill his role as suitor, is disqualified as a potential mate. He has "something to do with death," as do all his encounters with Jill. There is, then, no basis on which the two can build a life together (as Cheyenne observes), so they must go their separate ways.

Still, genre conventions have been satisfied: the avenger has exacted his revenge, the hooker has been redeemed by her love for the hero. We get our money's worth.

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redyred
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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2004, 04:45:01 AM »

Jill is a stock character, "the hooker with a heart of gold," as we used to say, also known as "the tart with a heart."

Not at all - she is very cold and stern - look at her attitude towards Cheyenne for example. She's clearly not the sort to suffer fools gladly. She is like this even before she knows of the McBain's massacre - remember the jolly barman who talks about his sister in New Orleans - he doesn't exactly get much of a warm response from her.

Jill is also a very down-to-earth character. She accepts with dignity the fact that she is a hooker who had a chance at a "respectable" life, but then had that chance snatched away. She is maintains her confidence and refuses to crumble. One of my favourite lines from the films is from her meeting in the bar with Harmonica -

"You don't look like a guardian of poor, defenceless women. But then I'm no poor defenceless woman."

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liipuhu
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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2004, 09:16:10 AM »

interesting points...
why did she come to live in the outback all way from new orleans? it was good deal right? beats living as a prostitute. when cheyenne comes around her home for the first time,she contemplates killing him with a kitchen knife. so therefore revenge is (obviously) on her mind.
so why does she go the meet frank in the first place?
then frank makes love to her....so what´s her motive at this point? maybe she´s just waiting for the right moment to avenge her husband and children. okay so she screws frank to save her life. but what then? the next thing we know, she is at the auction selling her house and going back to new orleans...
did she give up and just figure the whore life is the one for her and she never should have thought other wise or what? does jill feel that she isn´t able to seek revenge or that it doesn´t change anything??

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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2004, 07:37:59 AM »

-

"You don't look like a guardian of poor, defenceless women. But then I'm no poor defenceless woman."
And then she takes a slug of whisky and nearly chokes

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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2004, 03:40:46 AM »

Franks takes her with him - dealing with her "personally" - and he makes her hold the auction - supervised by his men.

At this point I think she is beaten - ready to go back east. In the scenes from the auction she's got some heavy lines under her eyes, as far as I remember - telling us that she's done.

But then Harmonica turns up and buys the land. I don't think Jill is thinking very much about revenge through the movie, she hardly knew McBain anyway. She just thinks he's got money somewhere.

In the end though she turns into a "better" person - bringing the workers water - into a kind of "mother" to the future station of Sweetwater.

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KERMIT
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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2004, 09:58:10 AM »

cheyenne's first questions to jill was always "have you made coffey ?"  after tearing jill's lace off, harmonica tells jill" it's not over yet, stay and fetch me water. i like my water fresh."

jill's former "job" came in handy, in that she seduces frank, deluding him into thinking he actually could become a business man, thus giving harmonica and cheyenne time to think of a way to come up with obtaining the money needed to get that land.  cheyenne prostutes himself for jill in order to earn the money needed to obtain mcbain's land.

...and, if i should pat claudia on the behind, she's to make beleive it never happened,...... i earned it.   Roll Eyes

« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 10:25:05 AM by KERMIT » Logged
dave jenkins
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2004, 01:18:35 AM »


jill's former "job" came in handy, in that she seduces frank, deluding him into thinking he actually could become a business man, thus giving harmonica and cheyenne time to think of a way to come up with obtaining the money needed to get that land.  cheyenne prostutes himself for jill in order to earn the money needed to obtain mcbain's land.



I'm finding it hard to believe we've seen the same movie. Jill "seduces" Frank? Rather, she yields to him, under threat of death. Later she tries to sell out because it is the easiest thing for her to do. She doesn't plan, she doesn't strive, she goes with the flow. She is essentially passive throughout the movie. Then, at the end, she shows she's changed by actually taking the initiative: she gives the boys a drink. At that moment, she transforms from archetypal whore to archetypal mother. It was a heck of a ride, but she got to the end in one piece.  

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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2004, 01:19:20 AM »

Well, it's 8am, I've just got back from work and I've got plenty of coffee inside me. I think it's time to watch OUTW again. I'll post any new thoughts I have.

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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2004, 04:57:05 PM »

My main thought on Jill is that she is the most beautiful specimen of a woman ive ever seen, ive only ever seen her in one other movie and sure enough in that she was immaculate too.




What a little tramp.

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conradv
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2004, 01:35:26 PM »

What a little tramp.

Ain't it great?  Smiley

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DJIMBO
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2004, 02:57:59 PM »

i just love the subject title: analysis on jill.

Phew, i could analyse Jill all day.  Wink

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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2004, 04:27:32 PM »

i think the reason she gives in to frank so easily is the same reason she married mcbain... she's a whore, and she is a sucker for money... she thinks if she sells the land to frank she may be in on the money... he does hint at settling down with her... and if not with him then with someone, either cheyenne or harmonica... she has to think one way or the other she is going to be around when the station is built and get a hold of some of that money, either as franks mistress or someone elses... the reason i think she tries to kill cheyenne with the knife is because at the time she still has hope that mcbain is rich as he said he was and has the money hidden away somewhere, at this point she doesn't just think that his money is depending on a station being built... think about the funeral, she doesn't seem all that upset, and the first thing she does when it's over is not mourn the loss of her husband, but search for his money, and then mourn the loss of his riches...the point is she's in it for the money...  just as frank, and morton, cheyenne is just a bandit, and harmonica is looking for revenge and nothing else... this is also the reason i don't think harmonica stays... i don't think harmonica thinks too much of the kind of woman jill is... i think cheyenne would have stayed if he wasn't dying and if frank had killed harmonica he would have taken over the station and wed jill... forcifly or not... i think jill would have welcomed frank... i don't see jill as a well-doer... she is a "whore with a heart FOR gold"... not OF gold... i think it goes along with the whole theme of the movie... Only in america could mcbain go after his dream like that... and only in america could men like morton and frank succeed in ripping him off in cut-throat business... it's the duality of the american dream that leone was illustrating in both OUATITwest and OUATIamerica... only in america could a whore become a rich housewife... and only in america could a woman whore herself out to rich men only to benefit herself.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2004, 04:31:52 PM by grandpa_chum » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2004, 05:23:03 AM »

Well g_c, thats certainly a true observation of a lot of childless women, all you have to do is observe the America around us.

Though I think that may be the distiction, Jill though married to Mcbain prior to arriving was under the impression that he was a rich man, she may have been jaded when she saw the town the ranch etc, Her new family she never got to know and her short time with McBain may explain her short period of mourning, it would also enforce a notion that all men are lying sob's.

She transforms into the symbolic water giver the universal earth mother at the very end.

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