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Author Topic: El Indio used to be good?  (Read 3931 times)
Senza
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« on: February 27, 2013, 04:37:11 PM »

This theory may sound a bit ridiculous, but hear me out.

I was reading a thread talking about the purpose of the twist of Colonel Mortimer's sister, and I thought it was pretty straight forward. But I realised that maybe the scene tells us more about Indio than we think. What if, Indio was the husband of Mortimer's sister, and at that point was a good man, but when he came into the house that night and saw his wife with another man, he killed him out of anger, and (the ridiculous bit) raped his wife out of anger - and because of that she killed herself. And maybe this is the reason why Indio went from good to bad, which is why throughout the entire movie he keeps fantasising about it and from the movie it looks the she means a lot more to him than being just a victim, which would explain his deep regret.

What do you guys think? I'm not sure if this theory has been talked about before.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 04:38:45 PM by Senza » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2013, 04:42:15 PM »

Also watch the flashback in FDM with this theory in mind.

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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2013, 04:53:29 PM »

This theory may sound a bit ridiculous, but hear me out.

I was reading a thread talking about the purpose of the twist of Colonel Mortimer's sister, and I thought it was pretty straight forward. But I realised that maybe the scene tells us more about Indio than we think. What if, Indio was the husband of Mortimer's sister, and at that point was a good man, but when he came into the house that night and saw his wife with another man, he killed him out of anger, and (the ridiculous bit) raped his wife out of anger - and because of that she killed herself. And maybe this is the reason why Indio went from good to bad, which is why throughout the entire movie he keeps fantasising about it and from the movie it looks the she means a lot more to him than being just a victim, which would explain his deep regret.

What do you guys think? I'm not sure if this theory has been talked about before.

But right before, at the beginning, we see Colonel Mortimer's sister and her husband admiring the his & her watches, which wouldn't make sense if Indio was her husband, no?

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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2013, 04:55:37 PM »

Well I thought maybe he wasn't her husband, he was the one she was having an affair with, and the reason why they are both admiring the watches is maybe because they are something Indio couldn't buy for her, he probably wasn't rich like the man who gave her the watches.

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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2013, 04:56:25 PM »

It's just a thought, anyway. I'm not even convinced myself.

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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2013, 12:14:44 AM »

No. Indio be bad.

Although it's possibly this event with Mortimer's sister which turns him into the pot-smoking fetishist serial killer we know.

We see him tortured and haunted by the memory, crippled by regret and self-hatred and (I've always thought) a resulting deathwish.

Perhaps he was a mere cattle rustler, horse thief or cardsharp before? But a good husband? I can't see it.

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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2013, 12:23:47 AM »

Maybe a husband who couldn't control his anger - but not as bad as the man he was after the incident.

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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2013, 10:08:19 AM »

It's an interesting thought, but I don't think it's true, for 3 reasons:

A) a lover can't buy his girl a pocketwatch. Those things are visible. You wear them openly. How is she gonna explain to hubby indio that she suddenly has a pocketwatch with some German dude's picture on it? (as we discussed elsewhere, each pocketwatch probably had  apicture of the other person; Mortimer later recovered the other watch and replaced the man's picture with his sister's).


B) if that was really the case, that Indio was a hubby who walked in on his cheating wife, and then raped her out of anger, firstly, I am not sure if she would kill herself. i am sure it's very bad, but is being raped by your own husband who you've fucked 100 times before, so traumatizing that you'd wanna kill yourself?

C) and most importantly, if this was the case, then I don't know if Mortimer could be that upset at Indio and haunted at what happened to his sister. if she was a married woman caught by her husband, and he raped her, what caused her to kill herself? it probably couldn't have been the rape, like I said before. maybe it wa sthe fact that she was sad her lover was dead? either way, there is no way that Mortimer (assuming he knew the full story) could blame Indio for what he had done. Mortimer would have done the exact same thing. A cheating wife, caught in the act, is fair game.

As an aside, I'll point out that at common law, a husband could never be charged with rape of his own wife. (Now, the law is changing, and I am sure that by now a husband could be charged with raping his wife in any state), but the point is that if she was his wife, that changes everything.

Interesting theory, but I don't think it can work  Wink

« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 06:23:30 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2013, 10:38:26 AM »

No. Indio be bad.

Although it's possibly this event with Mortimer's sister which turns him into the pot-smoking fetishist serial killer we know.

We see him tortured and haunted by the memory, crippled by regret and self-hatred and (I've always thought) a resulting deathwish.

Dude! This is my veriest belief also!

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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2013, 05:14:30 PM »

@ drinkanddestroy, when I first thought of it I tried to make as much sense out of it as I can, but my initial thoughts were Mortimer's sister could've killed herself for any of these three reasons:
1. Indio could've been an abusive husband, and when he found her with another man, she probably knew she was dead anyway [maybe this is why Mortimer was pissed off at him, probably because he treated her like shit anyway which caused her to cheat].
2. The man she was having an affair with could've been the "true" love of her life, and so when Indio killed him, she had no reason to live.
3. This one requires suspension of disbelief - she was ashamed of herself for cheating on him [maybe a thing she was taught and brought up with, I mean Mortimer was an honourable man avenging the death of his sister, and so something like adultery probably would've been dealt with in a similar manner].

These are just thoughts anyway


« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 05:27:16 PM by Senza » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2013, 05:23:59 PM »

Interesting theory Sensa.

It's an interesting thought, but I don't think it's true, for 3 reasons:

A) a lover can't buy his girl a pocketwatch. Those things are visible. You war them openly. How is she gonna explain to hubby indio that she suddenly has a pocketwatch with some German dude's picture on it? (as we discussed elsewhere, each pocketwatch probably had  apicture of the other person; Mortimer later recovered the other watch and replaced the man's picture with his sister's).


B) if that was really the case, that Indio was a hubby who walked in on his cheating wife, and then raped her out of anger, firstly, I am not sure if she would kill herself. i am sure it's very bad, but is being raped by your own husband who you've fucked 100 times before, so traumatizing that you'd wanna kill yourself?

C) and most importantly, if this was the case, then I don't know if Mortimer could be that upset at Indio and haunted at what happened to his sister. if she was a married woman caught by her husband, and he raped her, what caused her to kill herself? it probably couldn't have been the rape, like I said before. maybe it wa sthe fact that she was sad her lover was dead? either way, there is no way that Mortimer (assuming he knew the full story) could blame Indio for what he had done. Mortimer would have done the exact same thing. A cheating wife, caught in the act, is fair game.

A. Google Phillip Barton Key and/or Daniel Sickles if you don't already know them. There's no rule that lovers need be discreet, and indeed the indiscreet ones have a better-than-average chance of getting killed by cuckolds.
B. She could kill herself because her lover was just shot to death. She could kill herself because a fate worse than death awaited her at Indio's hands. Then again, I've always thought she was trying to kill Indio and failed.
C. The fact remains that Indio killed (or caused the death of) his fucking sister.

Quote
As an aside, I'll point out that at common law, a husband could never be charged with rape of his own wife. (Now, the law is changing, and I am sure that by now a husband could be charged with raping his wife in any state), but the point is that if she was his wife, that changes everything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spousal_rape

Your legal distinction is pointless as Indio is forcing herself on Mortimer's sister.

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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2013, 06:31:06 PM »

@Groggy,

My point of mentioning the legal distinction was just for the purpose of saying that spousal rape is (rightfully or not) not treated the same way as other rape, at least historically. of course, Mortimer is not a judge or jury, he is brother avenging his sister's death. But as i describe in the rest of the post, if Senza's theory is really correct, that Indio was a husband being cheated on, combined with the fact that his wife did kill herself, I don't think Mortimer could have blamed Indio that much. Yes, of course people use emotions when  a relative is killed  rather than logic, but the point is that Mortimer's life has been consumed by this mission to avenge an incident that changed his life, I just don't think it works as well if Indio was actually the aggrieved party and his wife/Mortimer's sister was the one in the wrong.

I don't believe for a moment that the girl was trying to kill Indio. She couldn't have possibly been closer to her target! This was probably a contact wound. If she was tryng to kill him and accidentally killed her, the movie should have shown that.

Again, this "Indio as cheated husband" is a cute but IMO untenable theory

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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2013, 06:39:03 PM »

Except Mortimer was not a lawyer. He was an avenging brother. Why even assume he knows the exact circumstances of what happened?

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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2013, 06:49:15 PM »

again, my point isn't the legal distinction per se. The point is that if Indio was her husband, his actions wouldn't be nearly as bad as if he wasn't, they would take on a whole different meaning. Is it possible that Mortimer would want to kill him anyway, just because Indio was somehow responsible for his sis's death? Yes, of course. But it changes the whole dynamic. Frankly, if this theory is correct, then I don't blame Indio for what he did, and Mortimer's vengeance is not a very noble one.


Of course, there's no way to know how much Mortimer knows. That's the beauty of the single 4-word line, "Naturally, between brother and sister." It tells everything, (but also nothing). (In his book Spaghetti Westerns, Frayling briefly mentions, but immediately rejects, a theory that Mortimer is a voyeur to his sister's rape).

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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2013, 07:25:08 PM »

It's a very cute theory indeed!

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