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Cusser
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« on: January 06, 2014, 06:28:17 PM »

Things that bother me:

Tuco should've been speaking Spanish (with English subtitles) even in the English version in the scene with his brother and the scene with his buddies in the cave (since it's been included).  That would've been more realistic.

I've always thought that the note left by Angel Eyes should've read "Adios, idiots" rather than "see you soon, idiots".  I DO like the scenes added back into GBU, but Eli could've done a better job in the cave scene, since that was included.  The other added scenes add a lot to the film in my opinion. 


Outside of GBU, yesterday Magnificent Seven preceded GBU on Turner Classic, and it's always bothered me that James Coburn ("Red") doesn't retrieve his throwing knife from the dead guy's body.  Those things didn't grow on trees....

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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2014, 06:44:22 PM »

if you are gonna let the language bother you, then what about FOD - shouldn't all the conversations among the Rojos have been in Spanish? And in FAFDM, almost all of Indio's gang are also Mexicans - shouldn't all conversations among them have been in Spanish?

In movies, I generally prefer to have people speaking in their real language and have subtitles, rather than just having everyone speak English. But I don't have a problem with how it's done in the Dollars films - remember that these films were all dubbed into various languages for release - I'd guess Italian, French, German, maybe Spanish and more. So, obviously, Leone wasn't concerned with realistic language, he preferred to dub everything into the language of the country the movie will be viewed in.... Also, when the dialogue was dubbed, if you would have some characters speaking English part of the time and Spanish part of the time, then you would have to find voice actors for the dubbing who can speak both languages, because each actor has to have the same voice no matter what language he speaks. How many voice actors are fluent in multiple languages? I am fine with the Dollars films just as they are.

why do you prefer "Adios" to "See you soon?" Angel Eyes is warning them that he has his eye on the gold and he is gonna see them soon.

the cave scene never should have been added back into the movie  - it should have just been a deleted scene - but why blame Eli? is it his fault John Jerk asked him to dub his voice 35 years later? Obviously, the voice will have changed.... I've discussed the deleted scenes very extensively here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11287.msg156676#msg156676 so I won't go into them any more now, but in a nutshell, I'll say that other than the cave scene (which Leone deleted), I am happy the missing scenes were restored; and that scene with Angel Eyes at the fort is absolutely vital, I can't imagine why in hell that was deleted.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 06:52:41 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2014, 03:19:24 AM »

The cave scene is a total miss all around, I might have said already.

What bothers me is that they leave the chicken (?) behind just like that. Those things also didn't grow on trees... It is diametrically opposed to the tone of the whole movie: I didn't get the feeling abundance was reigning around while the war was going on, and remember, even Tuco eats the veggie stew (?) like its a New Year's Eve banquet at the camp.

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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2014, 03:37:39 AM »

and that scene with Angel Eyes at the fort is absolutely vital, I can't imagine why in hell that was deleted.

They cut scenes which are not essential for the story, and which don't hurt the rhythm of the film to much, or destroy it's inner balance. Of course they could also have cut the scene with Tuco and the gunsmith (which for the inferior UK version was cut out), but that's an essential scene for the film's way of storytelling and characterizing.

The scene at the fort is pretty long compared to its relevance for the story.

In the end it is too bad that there ever was an international version, even if many say that it is the better version.

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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2014, 09:56:05 AM »

I think we all saw far too many times those movies to be really relevant about what hurts or don't hurt the pace of the film. I'm just happy to see the fort scene, it's well integrated and it's regular Leone work (which means that the world is better with it available on DVD/BD). I may have thought like Stanton if I had seen the movie with that scene in the first time, but who knows.

Most of the other scenes don't work by themselves anyway so there is no real question about them.

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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2014, 10:15:09 AM »

I think we all saw far too many times those movies to be really relevant about what hurts or don't hurt the pace of the film. I'm just happy to see the fort scene, it's well integrated and it's regular Leone work (which means that the world is better with it available on DVD/BD). I may have thought like Stanton if I had seen the movie with that scene in the first time, but who knows.

Most of the other scenes don't work by themselves anyway so there is no real question about them.

what about the piece where the Union captain is telling Blondie and Tuco about alcohol being the most potent weapon in war? Certainly not essential to the plot like the Fort scene, but oh so fitting for the movie, and for Leone's attitude toward war... Ya know, story is not terribly important to the Dollars films. So, just because a particular scene is not essential to the story does not mean that it's not that important for the movie, that it's ok to leave it out. Even that little piece where Blondie and Tuco are traveling on the Confederate coach (shortly before they are captured) and see the dead soldiers on the side of the road, and Blondie makes a comment about how those guys don't have any problems any more, that's all part of the movie's themes and ideas about these con artists moving in and out of a war, a war interfering with their quest for gold, how their killings are nothing compared to the mass-state-sanctioned slaughter of war.
Also the extended scenes of Tuco forcing Blondie through the desert, Leone said something about how Deli Colli shot it in a manner worthy of the great surrealist painters. Again, maybe that entire scene is not essential for the story, but there is so much more to Leone's films than story.
For a movie like this   and, you can argue, for any movie made by a director as stylized as Leone (you can call it formalism or mannerism or whatever) just because a scene is not very important for advancing the plot does not mean that there's no problem in deleting the scene. Yeah, the Fort is scene is the most important of the deleted scenes IMO cuz there is a major plot hole without it, but the Master's work should not have been messed with.

and btw, all you old fans that prefer the 161-minute version better hang on to those old dvd's; I'd bet that any future releases (whether on DVD, BRD, digital streaming or some future format) will only have the long version

« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 12:09:18 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2014, 11:57:02 AM »

I grew up experiencing the International cut of the film. I believe MGM/UA did a reasonable job of trimming down the movie. The scenes that were excised weren't critical. However, the fort scene is magnificently shot and adds to the character development of Sentenza. Of all the scenes, I'm disappointed that scene was cut from the International version.

In my opinion, the International version of the film deserves a proper home release. Maybe 2014 will be the year we finally have our wish fulfilled? Let's see.

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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2014, 12:13:00 PM »

I think we all saw far too many times those movies to be really relevant about what hurts or don't hurt the pace of the film. I'm just happy to see the fort scene, it's well integrated and it's regular Leone work (which means that the world is better with it available on DVD/BD). I may have thought like Stanton if I had seen the movie with that scene in the first time, but who knows.


Then you misunderstood me. I'm for the longer version. But without the cave scene, which means the Italian version.

The fort scene is good for the rhythm and it brings Sentenza back in the film, who is without this scene too long away. And it the only scene which shows some human emotions from him. But on the other hand the scene where he suddenly shows up in the prison camp is more effective in the 161 min version.

The scene in which Blondie and Sentenza camp at night is one I would cut out. Superfluous, and it looks bad. Probably the weakest scene in the film. And then there is a short piece in which Tuco asks for the way to the mission, this one is superfluous too. But I like all the other scenes. And that short part with the drunk Captain is great.

So my perfect version runs 171 min. I call it the Stanton cut.

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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2014, 01:34:24 PM »

Then you misunderstood me. I'm for the longer version. But without the cave scene, which means the Italian version.

The fort scene is good for the rhythm and it brings Sentenza back in the film, who is without this scene too long away. And it the only scene which shows some human emotions from him. But on the other hand the scene where he suddenly shows up in the prison camp is more effective in the 161 min version.

The scene in which Blondie and Sentenza camp at night is one I would cut out. Superfluous, and it looks bad. Probably the weakest scene in the film. And then there is a short piece in which Tuco asks for the way to the mission, this one is superfluous too. But I like all the other scenes. And that short part with the drunk Captain is great.

So my perfect version runs 171 min. I call it the Stanton cut.
Why must there be only one best cut of the film? Or why must one cut be held up, merely to denigrate another? Why all the strife, the contention, the negative waves? Why can't all the cuts live together in peace and harmony, and we with them? Leone himself did not content himself with a single cut. Who are we to gainsay him? Let's celebrate the diversity.

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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2014, 01:53:26 PM »

some talk radio host once said, "Diversity equals perversity."

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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2014, 02:02:45 PM »

Why must there be only one best cut of the film? Or why must one cut be held up, merely to denigrate another? Why all the strife, the contention, the negative waves? Why can't all the cuts live together in peace and harmony, and we with them? Leone himself did not content himself with a single cut. Who are we to gainsay him? Let's celebrate the diversity.

100% agree with you. I think it's great that there are different cuts of the film.

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« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2014, 03:02:24 PM »

No you can't put every piece of matter you find down the road in it, that was made for one reason or another, especially not after 1563 years since the release of the movie. The only right answer is the one NL gave: we can't judge (in most cases) objectively anyway what should/shouldn't be in it, since we saw it too many times already. In some chases we will agree on a scene, in some not.

What I'm really waiting for is the technique that would allow you to choose in the menus of the disc what deleted scenes you wanna watch. Like when you select the commentary track - is that so hard to do?

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« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2014, 03:30:38 PM »



What I'm really waiting for is the technique that would allow you to choose in the menus of the disc what deleted scenes you wanna watch. Like when you select the commentary track - is that so hard to do?

it's a nice idea, the "build your own movie" bonus feature... but I think the studios will be reluctant to allow it; they'd rather you pay for both versions than giving you the options to build your own.

But eventually, maybe, you can choose not just what scenes, but what minutes, what audio (eg. some people may prefer, out of an interest in greater realism, that the Americans talk English while the Mexicans talk Spanish, so you can choose English for some characters and Spanish with English subtitles for others) delete certain scenes (the Cave) but keep others (the Fort, the liquor discussion with the Captain). Maybe one day, the bootleg "fan edits" will be redundant.

You know, I often get sad knowing that one day long after I'm dead there will be technology that, if I'd have been alive to see it, would have made all my problems go away....

ANYWAY, yes, I first saw the movie in 2008 or 2009, saw the 177-minute version, I didn't find out till much later that there was a short version. I later bought the short version dvd (btw, used copies are selling on Amazon for less than a dollar plus shipping - so less than $5 altogether!) but still not sure if I have watched it yet. So, if I had seen the short movie for 35 years, what would I have thought about the long one? who knows.

btw, as I discussed in the long thread about the deleted scenes, the UK version (according to Frayling) was 148 minutes, which I guess means they cut 13 minutes from the shortened US version. From what I remember (but far from certain), I believe Frayling mentioned they deleted the gunshop scene, the scene of the Union captain berating Angel Eyes for his brutality (in which discussion Angel Eyes uses the same arguments that the commandant of real-life Andersonville used to justify his brutality), and also possibly the scene where the half-soldier tells Angel Eyes about the cash box and the scene where Angel Eyes beats Bill Carson's girlfriend for info about Carson. I discuss that in the thread about all the restored scenes here http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11287.msg156705#msg156705

 Again, I am piecing this together from memory, what I believe I heard Frayling say on the commentary and in his writings, and am far from certain about it, but if this is true, how in hell could they have deleted that discussion between Angel Eyes and the half soldier? That is vital information.

Can anyone confirm what was deleted from the UK version besides what's missing in the USA version?

« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 03:35:29 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2014, 03:42:58 PM »

seems to me that this discussion is now veering off (as so many others do) into a general discussion of preferences RE: the deleted scenes.

I'd like to humbly suggest that this thread stick to the basic issues discussed in Cusser's first post here; but that discussions RE: the deleted/restored scenes should be continued in the long thread we already have about the restored scenes
http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11287.0 (I just bumped that thread) because it's better to have all info about that topic (just like any other specific topic) in one thread so that there is one place to find it all if you ever wanna refer/return to that discussion, etc. Smiley

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« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2014, 03:44:19 PM »

Cusser: on the list of things that bother you, you didn't mention the automobiles that somehow make their way into the Civil War. You okay with that?  Wink

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