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Author Topic: Please help me identify where this frame is found in the film!  (Read 15365 times)
drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2014, 05:05:19 AM »

You doing this as a fan thing, or trying for an official release - you'd have to get di$stribuution right$ for that, no?

Did you contact any of the organizations that may be interested (e.g. The Film Foundation, Andrea Leone Films .... )?



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Lil Brutto
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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2014, 10:02:59 AM »

so you obviously don't like any of the three BRD's out there now (the MGM US, the Mondo, or the new yellow one).
But of the three, which do you like the best? Can you describe a little of what is best/worst about each?

The 2009 MGM BD is absolutely horrible for obvious reasons. The 2014 MGM BD colors are screwed up but that can largely be fixed (and has been to some extent by an OT member) with editing software. What cannot be fixed are the overly dark and high contrast scenes. The information lost in the excessively black areas cannot be recovered. I really like the Mondo BD and it is my "go to" source for the Italian cut. The PQ is good and the color timing is pleasing. I suspect the colors are consistent with the original theatrical release; the IB tech print will verify this. However, the Mondo transfer has its flaws. There's the issue with the "jumping frames" and ultimately it's a dated transfer.

also, what about the various DVD's? the original MGM DVD from 1997 (the 161-min. version) looks like it had no real restoration, plenty of damage - but if you think the restorers screwed up, then maybe the restoration is not a good thing, maybe you like that disc?

I consider Il Buono Il Brutto Il Cattivo (BBC) and The Good The Bad & The Ugly (GBU) as 2 separate films given the nature of their original theatrical release. Although I appreciate the effort I believe the extended English language version is inferior to the US International cut available on the 1998 MGM DVD and 1990/1993/1998 MGM LD. The studio seems hell bent on treating the US cut as if it doesn't exist, which I feel is wrong. So my answer is I prefer watching GBU on LD with all the print damage (adds charm!) and ORIGINAL lossless PCM mono audio. The 1998 DVD is fine too. Keep in mind I'm talking official releases not fan/hybrid cuts etc.

You doing this as a fan thing, or trying for an official release - you'd have to get di$stribuution right$ for that, no?

This will be a fan preservation.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 11:39:45 AM by Lil Brutto » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2014, 10:13:08 AM »

Why not wait for the next Italian Blu? Which surely will be a 4K remaster, and surely will appear in about 1 - 3  years.
What's wrong with the recent Italian Blu, apart from being taken from a 2K scan? Most people who are critical with the new MGM Blu are praising the Italian colors.

If you've read all the bickering in the thread at bluray.com then you probably picked up on those who praise the new MGM blu believe the colors of the 4K transfer are more faithful to SL's intent because Sergio Salvati said so. I think that's pure nonsense but opinions don't hold any weight in such heated debates. However, evidence does. That evidence will come in the form of an unfaded IB tech print of BBC from the original theatrical run.

The cool thing is we've already identified one scene that's unique to this print and hasn't been seen in any home release (VHS, LD, DVD, BD) in the last 30 years.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 10:14:56 AM by Lil Brutto » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2014, 10:14:12 AM »

I'm still willing to contribute...if it's possible that this has alternate shots we can't let it get away!

I already let the seller know we'll take it. Just need to iron out the details. Hoping to hear back from him soon.

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« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2014, 12:33:05 PM »


I consider Il Buono Il Brutto Il Cattivo (BBC) and The Good The Bad & The Ugly (GBU) as 2 separate films given the nature of their original theatrical release. Although I appreciate the effort I believe the extended English language version is inferior to the US International cut available on the 1998 MGM DVD and 1990/1993/1998 MGM LD. The studio seems hell bent on treating the US cut as if it doesn't exist, which I feel is wrong. So my answer is I prefer watching GBU on LD with all the print damage (adds charm!) and ORIGINAL lossless PCM mono audio. The 1998 DVD is fine too. Keep in mind I'm talking official releases not fan/hybrid cuts etc.



the whole "print damage adds charm" is a bunch of hooey. sounds like people simply liking something cuz it's "old" and "what I am used to" - if we're wanna follow Leone's intent, when the movie was first released, well it wasn't released with print damage and he wasn't intending it be viewed that way. what I mean to say is, the changes MGM made to the BRD's may have been undesirable, but all the damage marks on early dvd's are undesirable as well. and btw, talking about Leone's intent, I wouldn't disregard the 177-min. version. He surely didn't prefer the 161-min. version. Again, this is something that people get usd to over the decades so they feel it is more authentic, despite the fact that if Leone had his way, it obviously would have been released in 177 min. version in the US.
you can debate whether the re-dubbed voices are a good idea, or whether they should have just Italian dialogue with subtitles for those scenes, but of you wanna get at Leone's intent, the movie is 177 min. long, not 161 (or 148 for the Brits).

Anyway, I don't mean to get off-topic, debating the various cuts, all I'm saying is that if we wanna get at Leone's intent, we should do so for real, what we think he wanted in 1967, and not add in the mistakes we have been used to for 35 years ...  Wink

« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 12:34:34 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2014, 01:12:18 PM »

the whole "print damage adds charm" is a bunch of hooey. sounds like people simply liking something cuz it's "old" and "what I am used to" - if we're wanna follow Leone's intent, when the movie was first released, well it wasn't released with print damage and he wasn't intending it be viewed that way. what I mean to say is, the changes MGM made to the BRD's may have been undesirable, but all the damage marks on early dvd's are undesirable as well. and btw, talking about Leone's intent, I wouldn't disregard the 177-min. version. He surely didn't prefer the 161-min. version. Again, this is something that people get usd to over the decades so they feel it is more authentic, despite the fact that if Leone had his way, it obviously would have been released in 177 min. version in the US.


Well, 174 min. The cave scene does not belong in the film. But yes, that's Sergio's version .

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« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2014, 01:14:45 PM »

That evidence will come in the form of an unfaded IB tech print of BBC from the original theatrical run.


Hmm, ok, but doesn't it look faded, or are the pics on page 1 not representative??

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« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2014, 01:24:16 PM »

If a print exists that still has the colors looking exactly as they did when the movie was released, why didn't MGM and/or Mondo use it to get accrate colors for the BRD, instead of relying on a vague statement from a camera assistant's memory that Leone wanted the movie to look like piss? Was the existence of this print a secret until now? Did MGM/Mondo not know or give a damn about this?

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« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2014, 01:27:27 PM »

Stanton, yes you are correct, I should have said the 177-min. version minus the Cave scene. (although do we really whether or not Leone wanted the full beating scene in there? If it's missinng even from Italian versions of the movie, does that necessarily mean he didn't want it in there? Did he have full authority over the final Italian cut or did he have to capitulate to distributors' desires to cut the film even in Italy?)

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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2014, 01:37:09 PM »

the whole "print damage adds charm" is a bunch of hooey. sounds like people simply liking something cuz it's "old" and "what I am used to" - if we're wanna follow Leone's intent, when the movie was first released, well it wasn't released with print damage and he wasn't intending it be viewed that way. what I mean to say is, the changes MGM made to the BRD's may have been undesirable, but all the damage marks on early dvd's are undesirable as well. and btw, talking about Leone's intent, I wouldn't disregard the 177-min. version. He surely didn't prefer the 161-min. version. Again, this is something that people get usd to over the decades so they feel it is more authentic, despite the fact that if Leone had his way, it obviously would have been released in 177 min. version in the US.
you can debate whether the re-dubbed voices are a good idea, or whether they should have just Italian dialogue with subtitles for those scenes, but of you wanna get at Leone's intent, the movie is 177 min. long, not 161 (or 148 for the Brits).

Anyway, I don't mean to get off-topic, debating the various cuts, all I'm saying is that if we wanna get at Leone's intent, we should do so for real, what we think he wanted in 1967, and not add in the mistakes we have been used to for 35 years ...  Wink

It's a 50 year old movie and I first watched it 30 years ago with all it's print damage glory. If you think my preference is "hooey" so be it. I like having both the beat up version and a pristinely restored version.

Bottom line is there are 2 cuts of this film. A decade ago MGM failed at preserving an English version of the Italian cut, partly due to circumstance (actors being dead or 40 years older) and partly due to poor judgment (foley effects, cave scene, etc). It would have worked if they had a complete English language track from the 60's but it doesn't exist.

The original theatrical release in English is the US/International cut. Nothing to debate there. It's fact. Fans demand this cut but MGM isn't listening and therefore we will preserve it ourselves.

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« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2014, 01:39:44 PM »

Stanton, yes you are correct, I should have said the 177-min. version minus the Cave scene. (although do we really whether or not Leone wanted the full beating scene in there? If it's missinng even from Italian versions of the movie, does that necessarily mean he didn't want it in there? Did he have full authority over the final Italian cut or did he have to capitulate to distributors' desires to cut the film even in Italy?)

We don't know, but he never tried to restore that scene. Actually it is too long imo anyway. The shorter one, is the better one.

According to De Fonari in the early 80s Il buono was restored to its full length, cause it seems that after its initial release, or at least in the 70s it was distributed in shorter versions. I think if Sergio wanted stuff like the cave scene to be officially part of the film, that was the chance.

One question to Lil brutto: Is the short scene towards the end in your print, the one in which Eastwood says Sorry Tuco before he leaves him, cause that short scene is so far missing in all Italian DVD versions.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 01:41:38 PM by stanton » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2014, 01:46:01 PM »

Hmm, ok, but doesn't it look faded, or are the pics on page 1 not representative??

They're not representative. The print is good overall condition and the colors are intact and unfaded. There are scratches etc but that doesn't affect it's primary function as a color source for accurately regrading BDs.

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« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2014, 02:09:56 PM »

One question to Lil brutto: Is the short scene towards the end in your print, the one in which Eastwood says Sorry Tuco before he leaves him, cause that short scene is so far missing in all Italian DVD versions.

That's a great question. Unfortunately, I won't find out until we receive the print.

Interestingly, that scene is in the original Italian mono track included on the MGM DVD.

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« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2014, 02:11:50 PM »

@ Lil Brutto: The 161MV IS available, on the DVD released by MGM in 1997 or 1998. No, it is not available on BRD, but it is available on that DVD - which is all beat up, per your preferences, and which also has as a bonus feature the extra scenes, not including the Cave Scene, with Italian audio and English subtitles. For someone who prefers the 161MV, beat up, with the extra scenes in original Italian audio as a bonus feature and not part of the film itself, this should be the ideal cut.
And it is available for literally pennies used on Amazon.


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« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2014, 02:20:39 PM »

If a print exists that still has the colors looking exactly as they did when the movie was released, why didn't MGM and/or Mondo use it to get accrate colors for the BRD, instead of relying on a vague statement from a camera assistant's memory that Leone wanted the movie to look like piss? Was the existence of this print a secret until now? Did MGM/Mondo not know or give a damn about this?


MGM 2009, MGM 2014 and Mondo 2009 BDs are all struck from different masters. Apparently MGM 2014 used prints as a colour reference but somehow  the BD turned out looking like a modern film with all it's piss/teal glory. The restoration effort found on the Mondo BD also used prints as a reference point. Both restorations claim to have used IB tech prints as a colour reference yet the outcome is extremely different. I put my money on the Mondo restoration as being more faithful to the original presentation.

IB tech prints exist but they're extremely hard to come by. This is a rare opportunity.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 02:27:13 PM by Lil Brutto » Logged

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