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Author Topic: Proof that the shorter international cut is Leone's own?  (Read 6954 times)
Jordan Krug
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« on: February 27, 2015, 07:32:03 PM »

From Conversations Avec Sergio Leone (french book)

I used google to translate this passage:

Q: WHY are the different versions in countries?

A: the French version is the longest. I supervised dubbing in English and French, I choose all the actors, from the largest to the smallest role. I fully assume the responsibility of the finished work. alas! distributors can amputate the film. in Italy, there were seven minutes cut. The united states, they removed twenty minutes to promote the sale of popcorn. The worst part is that they think the desert scene was too long. I love it. Tonino Delli Colli photographed it like one of the great surrealist painters.



The french cut is listed in the book at 164 minutes. I wonder what the extra two minutes are that are missing from the American international cut (162 min)?? Or is this just a mistake?

« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 08:43:58 PM by Jordan Krug » Logged
stanton
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2015, 02:51:18 AM »

From Conversations Avec Sergio Leone (french book)

I used google to translate this passage:

Q: WHY are the different versions in countries?

A: the French version is the longest. I supervised dubbing in English and French, I choose all the actors, from the largest to the smallest role. I fully assume the responsibility of the finished work. alas! distributors can amputate the film. in Italy, there were seven minutes cut. The united states, they removed twenty minutes to promote the sale of popcorn. The worst part is that they think the desert scene was too long. I love it. Tonino Delli Colli photographed it like one of the great surrealist painters.

The french cut is listed in the book at 164 minutes. I wonder what the extra two minutes are that are missing from the American international cut (162 min)?? Or is this just a mistake?

Noodles should know if there was a longer French cut, but I doubt it.
In De Fornari's book the French version is given with 166 min, but a recent German book says only 160 min. And that it was longer than the Italian version is 100 % not true.

But Leone's "popcorn" quote makes clear that the international cut is not what Leone wanted, even if he supervised the dubbing of the same.

The 7 min Leone  mentions here do not make any sesne either.

But then, it is our Sergio, and one day he says this, and another days he says that. If you read every Sergio interview you might not be sure any longer he ever directed any film (except for My Name Is Nobody of course).

« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 02:55:06 AM by stanton » Logged

Jordan Krug
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2015, 05:37:49 AM »

But he is saying they removed 20 minutes AFTER he finished the 164 (or 162) minute version. The 162/164 minute cut is the version HE created for international markets. I am not saying he doesn't prefer the italian cut, I am saying he is the author of both cuts so both cuts are valid.

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stanton
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2015, 06:06:00 AM »

But he is saying they removed 20 minutes AFTER he finished the 164 (or 162) minute version.

Not in this interview. The part about the dubbing is not connected directly with the part about the cuts. In the interview Leone laments about the cuts made in the international version, which he later helped to dub. In the wrong order.

The US version was not further shortened, the UK version was, but he mentions the US version and its shortening of the desert scene, which was shortened for the 161 min version.


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Jordan Krug
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2015, 09:12:03 AM »

It is connected directly. When he says the french is the longest he is referring to the international cut. He couldn't be referring to the italian. He says he takes full responsibility for that version, ergo Leone is the author of the international cut.

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stanton
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2015, 07:01:12 AM »

But as far as I know the French version is not longer than the US version. As far as I know the new scenes were also newly dubbed for the 2004 DVD. Noodles may correct me if I'm wrong.

And he only says that he takes responsibility for the quality of the dub. Then he talks about cuts made to GBU by distributors, cuts he regrets.

At least you cannot draw from the interview a direct confirmation that Leone created the 161 min version, or that he approved it.

And besides there are to much wrong data in it anyway.

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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2015, 11:28:59 AM »

The french cut is listed in the book at 164 minutes. I wonder what the extra two minutes are that are missing from the American international cut (162 min)?? Or is this just a mistake?

I think 164 for the French version is simply a misprint for 166 which is the length noted in other sources.

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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2015, 12:06:39 PM »

As far as I know the 1998 DVD is exactly the cut I had always watched on TV. But I' no expert in differences between versions. You guys are much better than I am for these things. I would never notice a longer or shorter Tuco beat up scene for example.

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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2015, 12:39:45 PM »

As far as I know the 1998 DVD is exactly the cut I had always watched on TV. But I' no expert in differences between versions. You guys are much better than I am for these things. I would never notice a longer or shorter Tuco beat up scene for example.

But the new scenes (those which were newly dubbed) are the same as in every other country?

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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2015, 04:04:52 AM »

Yes they are. Which means, if I'm not wrong: the scenes that were included as bonus on the 98 DVD + the grotto scene.

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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2015, 04:21:20 AM »

Yes, these scenes.

I'm sure UA sold worldwide only the international version. That's why Italy is the only country which got the Leone version.

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Jordan Krug
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2015, 07:49:15 AM »

Yes, these scenes.

I'm sure UA sold worldwide only the international version. That's why Italy is the only country which got the Leone version.

Stanton I respect your interpretation and opinion but I believe that this is telling us that both versions are Leone's. I know of a 35mm print of the international cut from 1967 with italian leaders, meaning it was printed in Italy. We can agree to disagree, again I am not arguing which version Leone prefers, I am saying that this is evidence he is the author of both versions, and he chose which scenes to cut (for the full version of the international cut).

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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2015, 12:04:02 PM »

So let me get this straight...

- Leone created a version for the Rome premiere (the Italian version) that is the longest known version. The most recent releases of GBU added the footage from this back in to the longest international version to create an "extended version"
- For the actual release, Leone went with a 166 minute cut that removed some parts from the long Italian premiere (i.e. some, but not all, of the "deleted" scenes). This was only ever released as such in France, because everywhere in the world (including Italy) it was cut to varying degrees?

On the basis of the above, I think we can conclude that Leone's preferred version was the 166 minute version. His cutting it down after the Rome premiere to a preferred length is not unusual. Visconti did the same after the Cannes premiere of The Leopard. I believe there is a French DVD of The Leopard that includes those original scenes as originally presented, but the version we all know (not including the heavily edited English language version) omits those scenes as Visconti preferred.

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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2015, 12:55:39 PM »

So let me get this straight...

- Leone created a version for the Rome premiere (the Italian version) that is the longest known version. The most recent releases of GBU added the footage from this back in to the longest international version to create an "extended version"
- For the actual release, Leone went with a 166 minute cut that removed some parts from the long Italian premiere (i.e. some, but not all, of the "deleted" scenes). This was only ever released as such in France, because everywhere in the world (including Italy) it was cut to varying degrees?


Not really.
It seems there was a Rome premiere version which included the Grotto scene. The theatrical version was then released without that scene, and runs 177 min. Most likely the IB print of Lil brutto.

In 1969 GBU was further cut down, only to make it shorter for a re-release. When in the early 80s the long version was restored the torture scene was damaged and some other minor stuff was missing. This version must be the one since released in Italy on all sorts of home video and runs 175 min.

According to Noodles the French version did not include all the stuff which was as bonus on the 98 DVD. Most likely also only the 161 min version as distributed by UA in every country apart form Italy. A new book from a German author lists the French version with 160 min.

The question of this thread is if Leone helped to shape the international version, but so far I haven't read anything concrete that Leone made the cuts himself or supervised it. It is still possible that he helped to create the shorter version, but even if so, he seemed not to be happy with the cuts. Cause in several interviews he complained about the cuts.

Unlike Jordan I don't see in the international version anything else than a version cut against Leone's intentions. A good version, but still not a DC.

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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2015, 01:25:03 PM »

Stanton I respect your interpretation and opinion but I believe that this is telling us that both versions are Leone's.

But he complains in that interview about the USA version being cut by 20 min to sell popcorn. And that is the international version, nothing else he could mean. Or?

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