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Author Topic: How long is the longest version?  (Read 13991 times)
Il Tramonto
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« on: August 18, 2004, 09:40:47 PM »

I've seen the 158 minute cut, but I don't remember these 2 scenes-

"Juan pushes the landowner's wife into a barn and shows her what he's got in his pants: "Pretty good, huh?" (We have to take this on faith; his lumpen-proletariat putz is below the frame line.) After raping the woman and stripping her husband, Juan leaves them groveling in a pigsty.

Juan and Sean bond when Juan tricks Sean into dynamiting his new employer, a German mine owner, along with his men. They are blown to smithereens in an abandoned church, no less. "

It says 20 minutes will be added to this version, so will it be 178 minutes in length?

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DJIMBO
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2004, 02:35:45 AM »

these 2 scenes r definitely on the R2 DVD ive got and that is 147 mins long, so there must b some scenes i cant see i know the final flashbacks not on it and 'What about me?' line.  Embarrassed

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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2004, 08:25:53 AM »

I've seen the 158 minute cut, but I don't remember these 2 scenes-

"Juan pushes the landowner's wife into a barn and shows her what he's got in his pants: "Pretty good, huh?" (We have to take this on faith; his lumpen-proletariat putz is below the frame line.) After raping the woman and stripping her husband, Juan leaves them groveling in a pigsty.

Juan and Sean bond when Juan tricks Sean into dynamiting his new employer, a German mine owner, along with his men. They are blown to smithereens in an abandoned church, no less. "

It says 20 minutes will be added to this version, so will it be 178 minutes in length?

I saw a recent version at the Leone festival in Chicago.  The above two scenes were included.

Some other extras that were in this version:

- the Chairman Mao quote at the intro
- Juan discovering the massacre of his children in the cave
- the final menage a trois flashback (reminded me of an Irish Spring soap commercial)

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Il Tramonto
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2004, 11:15:01 PM »

I believe those 3 you've mentioned I've seen before on a VHS tape, but can you go into further detail about the final flashback? I'm not sure if I actually saw the full version of it. And do you know what the length of the version you saw was?

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General Sibley
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2004, 05:51:52 AM »

The final flashback was pretty long, at least 3 or 4 minutes.  Starts out with all 3 of them dancing around in the field in slow motion.

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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2004, 11:34:11 AM »

There are actually two versions of the flashback, the short 30 sec. version which was in the 138 [130 mins PAL] , and the almost 4 min. version in the recent Italian restoration, which runs 154 min [147 mins PAL].

The longer version of the flashback makes it clear that Sean ,his friend, and the girl had some kind of menage a trois, you can't really tell in the short version.

As far as I know there has never been a version longer than 154 mins.

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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2005, 12:09:28 PM »


Some other extras that were in this version:

- Juan discovering the massacre of his children in the cave

Hey, can we please get a little more detail here?

I've seen three completely different edits of DUCK YOU SUCKER and all of them contained the exact same footage of Juan staring sorrowfully at his slain progeny while the Morricone tune entitled "The Dead Sons" plays on the soundtrack.

Since the first time I ever saw this movie (back in 1978) I have been baffled by the sequence. What the hell happened?! Were they ambused by the Austrian's advance guard? How did Juan discover them? Why is he staring sadly instead of screaming and crying and going into a fit of rage? Why isn't he howling in anger at Sean, pointing out that if Sean hadn't embarassed him into staying behind for the bridge-battle, he might have been able to defend his family?

A few months before I saw the film for the first time, I had a meeting with Doug McKinney about a Peckinpah book he was writing (which was published by Twayne the next year) and during the course of our chat, I mentioned that I was gonna be seeing DYS for the first time very soon. Doug  shook his head and muttered, "You're gonna cringe at what's been cut out of it."

Thus forewarned, I approached the screening with expectations of an elliptical narrative that would have big chunks of important exposition missing. However, the movie completely overhwelmed me, impressing me in a way that only a handful of others ever had. After it was over I begged some blank paper from the projectionist and sat through the next screening, taking notes as best as I could in the darkness of the auditorium.

During those two back-to-back screenings, the only part of DYS that struck me as at all elliptical (or in need of further exposition) was the one mentioned above -- the scene in which Juan observes the bodies of his dead sons.

Does anyone here know of any additional footage for this sequence that offers any insight?

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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2005, 09:05:12 PM »

I don't think there is any additional footage for this sequence, although  the sequence is edited differently in the 3 or so versions of the film I have seen.

In the shortened version I've seen, the shots of Juan's massacred family are intercut with his reaction shots, so you know from the start what is going on.

In the latest R2 dvd version, the camera stays on Juan's anguished expression for what seems like minutes, but we have no idea what he is reacting to. When he leaves the grotto to exact his revenge, only then do we discover that his family have been killed, & this through John/Sean's eyes.

This latter version is probably the correct one, & the one Leone intended to have in the film. I also think Leone liked setting up some sequences like this in his films, where information is withheld from the viewer as to what is happening, until near the end of the scene.

(although......come to think of it, I do believe there was mention of a scene that takes place after Juan & John have dynamited the bridge, & before they arrive at the grotto to discover everyone has been massacred.)*

I also think Juan's reaction to the massacre is appropriate & marks the turning point of the film into something more serious & tragic. There is a burning sadness as you watch his face go through various expressions & emotions until he finally removes the crucifix from his neck. I don't think the sequence would have worked as well if he would have behaved like he had done throughout the first part of the film. The enormity of such a massacre would probably leave a lot of people speechless & numb at first encouter. How can you react in the face of such an incomprehensible act?


The bit that I have a problem with is immediately after this sequence, when Juan leaves the grotto for revenge, & seconds later (through sound only) you hear him enter into a gunfight with the mexican army! Then, about a minute later, an officer annouces that they have captured him & are sending him back to the general (again, this information is only heard by the viewer & clearly within earshot of John/Sean, & not seen).

If Sean/John was able to hear all gunfire exchange & conversations of the officers as if it was all happening  right outside the grotto, wouldn't he have 1) been more concerned for his own safety 2) been able at that point to intervene & prevent Juan from being arrested? And what are the chances of Juan being arrested without being shot or wounded, at the very least?

There's just so much about this sequence that says "cut scenes" or "missing information"

As it is, this scene is a bit obvious, & being able to clearly hear that they have arrested Juan & are going to take him back to the camp is a more of a device to let John/Sean know what they are doing with Juan. The fact that you can hear the soldiers all speaking in spanish once the gunfire has stopped, but swtich to english once there is crucial information to be given to the viewer & to John/Sean sets up the following 'rescue' scene all too neatly.

My guess is that something was cut out at this point in the film, but someone realized that some information had to be retained in order to keep the story moving, then added in an "audio story" (gunfire, soldiers saying they have arrrested Juan) over Sean/John's witnessing of the grotto massacre.


This scene has always bothered me, especially coming right after such a powerful one.




Here are some of the other scenes that might have been cut from the film (taken from dvdtalk.com)

(4)  In the desert, Juan's boys completely dismantle the John's motorcycle. Juan yells at them to reassemble it.

*(5) The rebels are shown reuniting in the grotto, concerned, after John and Juan dynamite the bridge under Gunther Reza.

(6) Another Ireland flashback, after which John throws a liquor bottle at a gramophone.

(7) Gunther Reza's soldiers torture Dr. Villega, seen as shadows on a wall.

There is even an image on dvdtalk.com of what is mentioned in #7 of the torture scene;

http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s26duckyou.html


I don't think we'll ever get a complete version of this film!

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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2005, 09:40:58 PM »

I've always had a problem with Juan's line of dialogue (uttered while he beholds the dead sons) which goes, "I never counted them."

Oh come on! Hispanic cultures measure a man's wealth by the number of offspring he has, and Juan never counted them?!  What, when one of his paramours got pregnant yet again, did he go, "Oh what the hell. What's one more, eh? I've got so many now that I don't even bother counting them."

<cough>

On the other hand, maybe this line was added after the fact, when the scene was re-cut. I don't recall...Do we see Steiger's lips move as it's delivered? Or is it another ventriloquist stunt like the way he somehow asks out loud, "But what about me?" at the end of some prints without so much as a flicker of his lips?

And if the line does belong in the properly cut version of the scene, doesn't it ruin the "surprise" at the end, when the audience finally sees the pile of bodies?

 Huh  Huh  Huh


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Warwick
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2005, 10:34:47 PM »

I agree with you on that. How could he not know? It's a funny line to utter at that point, & it's quite distracting because you're thinking; "who loses count of how many children they have?" Especially someone for whom family is so important? Juan does mention earlier on that "his family is his country" to Sean/John when going over a map of Mexico. So having him say this is inconsistent with him saying he never counted his children.

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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2005, 04:41:59 AM »

I don't think the line is meant to be taken literally, it's uttered in a moment of extreme grief.

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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2005, 01:03:29 PM »

I've always had a problem with Juan's line of dialogue (uttered while he beholds the dead sons) which goes, "I never counted them."
I quote from the script; keep in mind that the numbers refer to the scene and that PP means "Primo Piano" (Close-up) and PPP Primissimo Piano (Extreme close-up). Please also forgive my literal translation from the italian script.
854. Interior, day. Caves of San Isidro
San Isidro caves. Small crane movement. Juan enters.
855. Very long PPP of Juan who steps forward, ducks and folds his hands. Camera always on Juan.. Sean enters from the right. PPP of Sean.
856. PP of Juan who cries. "All six of them...I've never counted them..."
857. PPP of John.
858. Like 856. Juan looks up to the ceiling. Pulls his necklace from his neck.
etc.

If we then jump to scene number 871, there is a bit for the spanish speaking members of this board.
871. Juan from behind. The shots outside subside. A voice (off screen): "Quieto...no te muevas que te quiebro...Capitan..Ya lo agarramos!" Another voice (off screen): "Hechelo al camion! No lo toquen!". Music starts.
(Translation: "Don't move or I cut you to pieces! Captain, we got him!" "Take him to the truck and leave him alone!"
End quote
The reason I quote fron the script is also because I wanted to show that Leone actually followed a pretty detailed script, but for some reason I cannot figure any another director who could have filmed Leone's movies like Leone himself, despite having the guideline of a detailed script.
What do you guys think???


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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2005, 01:50:19 PM »

Could you explain some of the deleted scenes to us if they are in the script?

Does it say who John's Irish friend and girlfriend are? Does it explain the desert taunting scene?

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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2005, 07:53:27 PM »

Leonardo, you have an original Italian script for this movie?!    Shocked

Do tell!!   Grin

Wow, yes yes yes, please tell us if the desert-torment scene is in there.

It's quite interesting to learn that the line about the number of sons (and the dialog for the offscreen capture of Juan) are indeed included.

What name does the script give for John's two friends in the Irish flashbacks?

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Leonardo
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2005, 01:18:37 PM »

Leonardo, you have an original Italian script for this movie?!    Shocked

Do tell!!   Grin

Wow, yes yes yes, please tell us if the desert-torment scene is in there.

It's quite interesting to learn that the line about the number of sons (and the dialog for the offscreen capture of Juan) are indeed included.

What name does the script give for John's two friends in the Irish flashbacks?

Yes, I do have the original script in italian. It was published in a italian book I bought back in 1971 called "L'antiwestern e il caso Leone" by Franco Ferrini.
I hate to disappoint you on all counts:
1. In the first flash-back (Scene 358, Exterior day, countryside near Dublin) the script refers simply to a friend of John  and a young lady. No names mentioned at all.
2. In this script, the movie ends without final flashback, i.e. the movie ends with scene N.1265 and I quote:
Continue scene 1263. Juan's voice offscreen: "What about me now?!". Music starts with the Sean, Sean theme. On screen the title appears Gił la  testa (Duck you). Fixed photogram. Credits.
I know many people will argue that the final flashback was part of the movie: all I can say is that the script I have does not include it and also, I confirm that when I first saw the movie here in Italy back in 1971, there was no flashback. 
However, the very same book contains an interview with Leone and he is asked about this final flashback. Here is what he said at the time (forgive my literal translation)
Quote
The final flashback will be for the european version. It will be a run in the open green irish countryside. There is John's girlfriend kissing him romantically under a tree.
Suddendly John's friend appears between the two and starts kissing the girl. John does not get upset, but on the contrary he feels a profound love for his friend, so much so that he does not mind sharing the woman with him. While John feels this friendship, he suddendly starts seeing like in a nightmare, a machine gun and he hears Juan shouting to him that he should hit the ground. The movie ends like that.
I (SL) repeat Chaplin's words in order to explain to you how I feel about movies: "I am not a politician, but I touch the souls where people suffer, where people love, where people enjoy themmselves. Cinema is essentially a show and I will keep making movies for the rest of my life".
End quote

3. Just for the record, the script refers to the mexican army guy as Gunter Reza (this is because I saw his name misspelled on this board several times).

4. Which desert-torment scene are you referring to??

By the way, the above mentioned book also contains several scenes from OUTIW which were subsequently cut, among others the hunting scene of Timmy McBain and his father  which was considerably longer;  Bronson standing on his feet after the shootout at the station; a longer scene of Sam and Jill; the chinese laundry scene etc.
Also all the scenes on GBU which were not in the final version (but were included in the DVD special edition released 2 years ago) are also described.
Well guys, have a nice evening, I'm off for a  10 days vacation on the island of Corsica in the Mediterranean. Wish me good weather and a lot of sunshine.
Talk to you whem I'm back (Sept. 6)!

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