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Author Topic: How is blondie good.. he murdred bounty hunters  (Read 5928 times)
noodles_leone
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« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2015, 05:27:06 AM »

So, what is in TWB, which couldn't be derived form earlier US Ws, and especially from earlier Peckinpah westerns? IMO probably nothing.

On top of my mind (even-though you already expressed your disagreement over some of them):

- Post modernism and meta cinema
- Anti heroes
- Violence
- Dust
- In your nose stylisation
- Iconisation of the main characters (through style, not through backstory or character development)
- Everything CJ just said
- Use of flash backs
- Bounty hunters

Once again I'm not saying "Leone created all this" because it probably never happened in the history of mankind: several people invent different variations of the same things at a particular time. Still, Peckinpah and others had seen some SW, mainly Leone ones, and it shows.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 05:28:54 AM by noodles_leone » Logged


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« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2015, 07:29:52 AM »

There are some things a man can't ride around.

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« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2015, 08:09:49 AM »

What I haven't seen mentioned in this discussion is STYLE in all its permutations i.e., cinematography, soundtrack, sound design which is one big contribution to the genre by Leone, coupled with that picaresque sense of humor.


I think THIS is the real reason these films live on.  One of those magical alignments of talent.

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« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2015, 03:29:31 AM »

On top of my mind (even-though you already expressed your disagreement over some of them):

- Post modernism and meta cinema



But TWB is not really a post modern film, but genres were generally more "intellectuallicised" in the late 60s, were remade, remodelled, like in Bonnie and Clyde (again) or in Point Blank or in the The Professionals.

And Peckinpah had already played with genre stereotypes in his earlier westerns. In RtHC he already had established a meta level in which the myth is questioned, and several genre conventions are turned upside down. While normally the heroes quarrel about the girl and fight against the baddies about the money, here they fall out cause of the money and the Hammond brothers only want the girl back. In the end not the good/bad man dies (like it still was in the screenplay), but the one with the moral on his side, and the moral of the film's protagonist is not the film's moral, so his death is a logical move.
In Major Dundee the opportunistic Dundee survives, while the more idealistic Tyreen dies.
But such elements were already at present in his TV show The Westerner.

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« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2015, 04:14:30 AM »



- Anti heroes
- Violence
- Dust



Actually I think that only a few SWs had some kind of an anti hero (Django Kills or Black Jack), what the SW brought to cinema was a newly modified kind of hero, one who is more selfish and more violent and less boud to a moral code. But in the end he is still the hero, still the best in everything, still doing the things the hero always does.
The real anti heroes are to be find later in several revisionist US Ws, like in Little Big Man, Bad Company, Kid Blue or Dirty Little Billy.

But Peckinpah's protagonists were already doubtful in their motivations in all his early films, and again already in The Westerner. And The Westerner had even established some SW like situations. In one episode Brian Keith arrives in a small Mexican village, it is abandoned, but it looks like it was abandoned only an hour ago. After leaving the town without solving the mystery, vultures lead him to a place in the hills full of corpses. He returns only to find the town now full of people, who try behave normally, but it is clear that they live in fear. A bunch of Mexican bandits hold them captive.
And the leader of them wears a totally worn out uniform with only one boot. Such an half barefoot bandit or the first scene of The Deadly Companions would have been doubtless labelled as influenced by SWs, if they were made in a 1970 film. In "The Line Camp" all cowboys wear clothes which are "worn, wrinkled and dirty" and the somehow absurd conflicts between the men arise of being stuffed together in a small cabin, being bored, drinking alcohol, envy and resentment. In "The Hand on the Gun" a man dies from a normally harmless bullet wound because they weren't able to stop the bleeding and in "Jeff" our hero begins to fight unfair when he fears to lose a fight against a pimp. when the pimp complains he answers that this is not a game. And the prostitute, for which he fought, and which he came to save, prefers to stay with her pimp.
And a more realistic and more violent approach towards violence is also apparent in every early Peckinpah film and again in his TV stuff, and for Major Dundee squibs and slow motion action was filmed, but all cut out by the producer. One scene with a squib and short slo mo moment is still there.
I already have said that many costumes in RtHC and Major Dundee are not less dusty and dirty than in SWs. And I find it also in many if not the most other US Ws of the 60s.

Generally, the more sadistic violence in SWs is mostly different from the increasing violence shown in US Ws throughout the 60s.

No, actually TWB may have had an influence by Leone, but everything in TWB is also and easily imaginable without any SW influence, but only following what was made in genre US genre films othe 60s, not only the westerns.
Peckinpah said in an interview that he watched FoD, and he speaks there very positively about Leone, so at least he knew this one film by Leone.

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« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2015, 06:19:52 AM »

Actually I think that only a few SWs had some kind of an anti hero (django kills or Black Jack), what the SW brought to cinema was a newly modified kind of hero, one who is more selfish and more violent and less boud to a moral code. But in the end he is still the hero, still the best in everything, still doing the things the hero always does.
The real anti heroes are to be find later in several revisionist US Ws, like in Little Big Man, Bad Company, Kid Blue or Dirty Little Billy.

I'm gonna be the Titoli of the thread (which is very hard for me so be nice):

Quote
An antihero or antiheroine is a protagonist who lacks conventional heroic qualities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihero

Selfishness and violence aren't conventional heroic qualities. The fact that US westerns went (very, very rarely) further than spags on the anti hero thing isn't contradicting what I said.

Now, I think you're right on one point: the evolution of mythology/cinema/society happened at the same time and in the same direction in Europe and in the USA and the evolution of westerns (both US and Spags) are part of the bigger picture so the exact impact of one over the other is kind of hard to track. I don't believe for a second, though, that there has been NO influence, like you're trying to demonstrate.

Last but not least, you're basing your whole argumentation on the quite suspicious "apart from Eastwood's movies" premise. Eastwood westerns, from 1975 to 1992, have been kind of the definition of what people meant by "American Western".

« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 06:22:26 AM by noodles_leone » Logged


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« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2015, 08:29:56 AM »





Now, I think you're right on one point: the evolution of mythology/cinema/society happened at the same time and in the same direction in Europe and in the USA and the evolution of westerns (both US and Spags) are part of the bigger picture so the exact impact of one over the other is kind of hard to track. I don't believe for a second, though, that there has been NO influence, like you're trying to demonstrate.

I would never say, that there was no influence, only that there was no influence directly visible ,nothing which cna't be explained by a development of style and themes already to be found in earlier US Ws. the SW and the US W existed parallel, and after the early SW phase, in which the SWs still relied on older Westerns, the SWs relied after Django more or less on themselves. And the later SWs also did not took much from US Ws, so that we have 2 parallel lines of developing westerns at the same time. In fact the SW, which is set in a destroyed west, should have come after the US twilight westerns, which are telling the destroying of the west.



Last but not least, you're basing your whole argumentation on the quite suspicious "apart from Eastwood's movies" premise. Eastwood westerns, from 1975 to 1992, have been kind of the definition of what people meant by "American Western".

But Eastwoods westerns are the only ones in which a SW influence is clearly traceable, all the other US Ws could stylistically and thematically very well be derived from earlier US Ws.

The most unique things like the the specific way to film shoot-outs or the ritualistic duels and the different use of music are hardly to find in any US W. The general atmosphere is of course the same.

So if there was an influence, it was not a crucial one. Not one which changed the heart of the US W.

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« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2015, 08:55:22 AM »

But Eastwoods westerns are the only ones in which a SW influence is clearly traceable, all the other US Ws could stylistically and thematically very well be derived from earlier US Ws.

The most unique things like the the specific way to film shoot-outs or the ritualistic duels and the different use of music are hardly to find in any US W. The general atmosphere is of course the same.

So if there was an influence, it was not a crucial one. Not one which changed the heart of the US W.

This is like saying things like:

"Clint Eastwood has never starred in a SW. Apart from the Leone ones."
"If you forget TWB and PG&BTK, Sam Peckinpah hasn't really used that much slow motion in his western movies."

Even if this is technically true, you're purposely excluding the most important part.

Like I said, I see your point, and it's interesting. While not entirely right  Tongue

I also agree about Peckinpah being one of the most under-appreciated influence of not only AW but nowadays action movies. Most movie goers don't even know him today.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 08:57:34 AM by noodles_leone » Logged


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« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2015, 09:04:10 AM »

This is like saying things like:

"Clint Eastwood has never starred in a SW. Apart from the Leone ones."
"If you forget TWB and PG&BTK, Sam Peckinpah hasn't really used that much slow motion in his western movies."

No, that's not the same. That is true, but not comparable to my "truth" about US Ws.

And what is the most important part?

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« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2015, 09:35:53 AM »

No, that's not the same. That is true, but not comparable to my "truth" about US Ws.

And what is the most important part?

I was answering to your "exept for Clint Eastwood westerns" point. You really cannot talk about post spags AW and not include the Clint ones. They're what people are picturing in their head when talking about American westerns.

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« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2015, 10:31:53 AM »

Stanton:  Afro Afro Afro

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« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2015, 11:22:12 AM »

Stanton:  Afro Afro Afro

See Stanton? I'm right. Now I only have to wait for Drink to endorse your theory and my demonstration will be perfect.

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« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2015, 11:39:52 AM »

I was answering to your "exept for Clint Eastwood westerns" point. You really cannot talk about post spags AW and not include the Clint ones. They're what people are picturing in their head when talking about American westerns.

Ok, but I did not exclude them. Compared to the mass of westerns which were still made until the mid 70s, Eastwood's ones are a very, very small number. And as he was working in Italy finding an influence is not a surprise. But also his westerns are markedly different in many aspects. Apart from High Plains Drifter, which is some kind of aware travesty of FoD, and the change of the protagonist of 2 Mules for Sister Sara into a Man-without-a-name clone, his westerns do not reproduce the patterns of the SW too much.
But we are talking about a general influence on US Ws, and that is not really given imo. But there are several US Ws which are clearly inspired by TWB, and many 70s westerns are dealing very obviously with themes Peckinpah introduced in RtHC.

Question is if the US directors really cared about the SWs, if they really were curious enough to watch them, maybe they simply ignored them, which was easy as I assume reviews were mostly very negative. Also for Leone's work.

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« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2015, 12:59:01 PM »

But Eastwoods westerns are the only ones in which a SW influence is clearly traceable, all the other US Ws could stylistically and thematically very well be derived from earlier US Ws.

The most unique things like the the specific way to film shoot-outs or the ritualistic duels and the different use of music are hardly to find in any US W. The general atmosphere is of course the same.

So if there was an influence, it was not a crucial one. Not one which changed the heart of the US W.

Baquero with Lee Van Cleef had the SW influence.

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« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2015, 01:12:32 PM »

Baquero with Lee Van Cleef had the SW influence.

Really? 

It is probably the first apart from the Eastwood films which I would suspect to have a SW influence, but actually I can't remember anything in it which is specifically SW style. And Gordon Douglas always made comparatively violent films.
I'm sure that Rio Conchos, if made a few years later, would also have been suspected to have had an influence from the Spagies.

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