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Author Topic: Sean or John?  (Read 18108 times)
smithrs
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2007, 06:10:17 PM »


There is the suggestion that Sean is in fact the name of the other male figure in the flashback sequences.  In the final flashback sequence, we see for the first time the love interest of John kissing the other male.  That coupled with the change in the music score to be the same one used in bar where John shoots the "Sean" suggests that there was a love triangle and perhaps a bit of jelously.  If you notice the final shot on John whose smile begins to fade while watching his love interest kiss Sean, it gives some credence to the love triangle theory.

He says the name Sean when asked his name by Jean because he is haunted by the memory of the "one time he judged somebody" With that, he was referring to his shooting his friend in the bar.

What is interesting is that the love triangle theory is suggested in the final moments of the film.  And that ending was cut significantly on the American release such that we never see the girl kissing John's friend.


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dave jenkins
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« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2007, 06:41:19 PM »

Yes, there is a menage a trois in the DYS flashback, but not a love triangle. The two are different. The latter almost always entails jealousy, the former does not necessarily (has no one on this board ever seen Jules and Jim?).

The point is, Leone gives no indication that there is anything dark going on between Sean and Sean prior to Nolan's capture by the British. Also, there is absolutely no reason to suppose that Mallory betrayed Nolan before Nolan betrayed the cause. Without any such evidence, it is best, IMHO, to stick with the simplest explanation the film affords us, namely: Nolan and Malory shared a political cause and a woman (who may symbolically represent that cause); Nolan fell into the hands of the British (perhaps in some mundane way); Nolan, under torture, betrayed his fellows; Mallory took revenge on Nolan and immediately regretted it; years later in Mexico he found a way to atone for his deed, and at the point of dying, experienced something resembling a state of grace (represented by the idyllic flashback that reunites Mallory with his friends in the Edenic Irish countryside). Other, more convoluted readings of the story are not supported by the film.

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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2007, 01:29:48 PM »

Hi,
I am a new member to this forum but I have enjoyed it for some time. The reason I joined is to try and sort out the Sean/John topic. I believe that they are the same person. Being from Ireland we have a Gaelic language although English is the widely spoken language. During the period of this film the Irish revolutionaries were fighting  for independence but also one of the main items on their agenda was the restoration of the native Gaelic language. Therefore all the revolutionaries used the Gaelic version of their names. For example Patrick used Padraig, Dennis would use Donnacha and John would use Sean. The authorities would never refer to them in the Gaelic version hence the John Mallory article in the newspaper. So in Ireland he would be refered to as Sean. That is why the Sean Sean theme is only used in the flashback scenes as to emphasise Seans Irish past but he is John when he is Mexico. I hope

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« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2007, 02:01:16 PM »

Hi,
I am a new member to this forum but I have enjoyed it for some time. The reason I joined is to try and sort out the Sean/John topic. I believe that they are the same person. Being from Ireland we have a Gaelic language although English is the widely spoken language. During the period of this film the Irish revolutionaries were fighting  for independence but also one of the main items on their agenda was the restoration of the native Gaelic language. Therefore all the revolutionaries used the Gaelic version of their names. For example Patrick used Padraig, Dennis would use Donnacha and John would use Sean. The authorities would never refer to them in the Gaelic version hence the John Mallory article in the newspaper. So in Ireland he would be refered to as Sean. That is why the Sean Sean theme is only used in the flashback scenes as to emphasise Seans Irish past but he is John when he is Mexico. I hope

Thanks for that, thiar, I thought so, too.

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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2007, 02:34:53 PM »

Yeah, that makes sense, I guess I've been waiting for someone from Ireland to make this point and you've made it very well. But see the links above for the involved discussion that has occurred on this topic. The fact that Sean/John are the same doesn't preclude the possibility that Nolan is also a Sean, making the My Three Seans theory still viable.

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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2007, 02:40:08 PM »

I quite like the idea Nolan was Sean too, because when Juan starts his speech about how they have the same name and how it is destiny, it's the moment when Sean gets his first flashback in the film (I think).

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« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2007, 04:47:38 PM »

I quite like the idea Nolan was Sean too, because when Juan starts his speech about how they have the same name and how it is destiny, it's the moment when Sean gets his first flashback in the film (I think).

Funny you should mention that because I had the same idea.


I was going to post something about it but just forgot to.

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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2007, 12:36:41 AM »

So you don't have to anymore. Smiley

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« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2007, 11:12:18 PM »

I think Sean is the man in the flashback and John is John Mallory. So the previous pair of partners were John and Sean and Sean betrayed him. John says "Sean" when asked about his name because he was thinking of his old partner. So it was John and Sean in Ireland and John and Juan in Mexico.

Maybe I'm way off as I've only seen the film once but I think that's how it is.

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« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2007, 11:42:57 PM »

I think Sean is the man in the flashback and John is John Mallory. So the previous pair of partners were John and Sean and Sean betrayed him. John says "Sean" when asked about his name because he was thinking of his old partner. So it was John and Sean in Ireland and John and Juan in Mexico.

Maybe I'm way off as I've only seen the film once but I think that's how it is.

I thought Juan just messed up his name and misunderstood Sean for John. Sean Malroy just went with it from what I see. Most of the film he's reffered to as John, so this is the reason why his character name appears as John in the credits.

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« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2007, 09:51:13 AM »

If his name is Sean though, than why did h is name appear in the newspaper as JOHN MALROY when Juan is reading it?

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« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2007, 10:00:15 AM »

Beacause the British government doesn't uses traditional Irish names.

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« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2007, 10:14:43 AM »

Beacause the British government doesn't uses traditional Irish names.

Interesting. Thanks Jill.  Wink

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« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2007, 02:48:58 PM »

There is the suggestion that Sean is in fact the name of the other male figure in the flashback sequences.  In the final flashback sequence, we see for the first time the love interest of John kissing the other male.  That coupled with the change in the music score to be the same one used in bar where John shoots the "Sean" suggests that there was a love triangle and perhaps a bit of jelously.  If you notice the final shot on John whose smile begins to fade while watching his love interest kiss Sean, it gives some credence to the love triangle theory.

He says the name Sean when asked his name by Jean because he is haunted by the memory of the "one time he judged somebody" With that, he was referring to his shooting his friend in the bar.

What is interesting is that the love triangle theory is suggested in the final moments of the film.  And that ending was cut significantly on the American release such that we never see the girl kissing John's friend.



I tend to agree with this the most.  I also agree there is a difference between a menage a trois and a love triangle but human nature precludes both of these.  Love always comes when least expected or wanted and it's human nature to want to be the object of desire whether or not the initial intention was a 'playful' relationship or 'no strings attached'.  If there's anyone here that's ever been involved in one of these relationships they'll agree that there is no such thing.  A relationship between a single man and woman is complex enough without adding more testosterone.

I also like the theory that they are both Seans.  That is truly brilliant.

I love all of his movies but this movie has a very tragic and meloncholic tone that is hard to shake off.

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dave jenkins
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« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2007, 04:27:08 PM »

Love always comes when least expected or wanted and it's human nature to want to be the object of desire whether or not the initial intention was a 'playful' relationship or 'no strings attached'.  If there's anyone here that's ever been involved in one of these relationships they'll agree that there is no such thing.  A relationship between a single man and woman is complex enough without adding more testosterone.
Well, yeah, although I don't know what this has to do with DYS. It's really hard to fire pistols quickly with dead accuracy in real life, but characters in Leone films do it routinely.

What I see in the final flashback is a successful menage a trois (successful in that all the members are happy). In real life, such things are extremely rare, but SL shows us one all the same. Perhaps what we see is not a flashback of an actual historical moment, but an idealized or fantasized moment. Even if that is the case, there is no reason to suspect the "reality" beneath the fantasy is somehow dark or twisted. The final flashback, unlike the final ones in FAFDM and OUATITW, does not, in my view, operate to provide plot information; it serves to reinforce the movie's central themes, and perhaps provides an index of Mallory's inner state (psychological and spiritual). And everything in the flashback is positive; I don't see any of the negative things that Glenn Erickson sees.

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