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stanton
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« Reply #390 on: May 30, 2012, 12:08:21 PM »

Regarding the scene where Charles Bronson gets up from the shootout, again I am happy to see the elegance and artistry of the camera movements(the close up of Charles Bronson's eye as he wakes out of consciousness etc)

But it destroys some of the film's narrative brilliance. For that alone it is a very "bad" scene. I wish Leone had never shot it. It wasn't in the shooting script.

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« Reply #391 on: May 30, 2012, 01:58:27 PM »

Regarding the scene where Charles Bronson gets up from the shootout, again I am happy to see the elegance and artistry of the camera movements(the close up of Charles Bronson's eye as he wakes out of consciousness etc)

well the fact is that Leone did not put that scene in the movie's final cut. I am all for having every foot of film that was shot as an extra in the dvd, but the feature film should be exactly as Leone intended.

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« Reply #392 on: May 31, 2012, 01:15:04 AM »

Original Negatives and Restored

there is more information on all four sides in restored


























I just hope they going to release movie on bluray in the intended original aspect ratio 1.85:1

restored scenes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ

(scene) Noodles and the director of the cemetery in Riverdale (Louise Fletcher)
Appearance of an ominous black Cadillac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a2anLcFXeo&feature=related

« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 02:20:36 AM by Derbent 5000 » Logged
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« Reply #393 on: May 31, 2012, 07:23:37 AM »

The Noodles and Max flashback scene was in the original version shown at Cannes in 1984.  it was restored with the first DVD release.  It was mostly violent scenes that were cut from the Cannes version.  I don't know why they had cut the flashback.  I think the scene will work better with the other restored scenes, especially Treat Williams.   

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« Reply #394 on: May 31, 2012, 10:00:41 AM »

The Noodles and Max flashback scene was in the original version shown at Cannes in 1984.  it was restored with the first DVD release.  It was mostly violent scenes that were cut from the Cannes version.  I don't know why they had cut the flashback.  I think the scene will work better with the other restored scenes, especially Treat Williams.  


So that final flashback of Noodles and Max as children -- which occurs in the minds of of the two of them in Bailey's office -- was definitely put there by Leone?

That is good to hear. When someone mentioned here that it was added in later by the studio, that was the first I had ever heard of it. So it's good to hear that that is not true, and that it actually belongs in the movie  Afro



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« Reply #395 on: May 31, 2012, 10:06:43 AM »

Original Negatives and Restored

there is more information on all four sides in restored



I just hope they going to release movie on bluray in the intended original aspect ratio 1.85:1

restored scenes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ

(scene) Noodles and the director of the cemetery in Riverdale (Louise Fletcher)
Appearance of an ominous black Cadillac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a2anLcFXeo&feature=related

1) Aren't all of these shots already in the movie? I don't see why they are included in the restored negatives.

2) These restored shots look damn good. On the youtube videos we've seen, the restored scenes look much much worse than the rest of the movie.

3) Don't get your hopes up about having the movie released in 1.85:1. Almost all dvd/BR of 1.85:1 movies seem to crop it to fit the 1.78:1 hdtv screen. It's totally ridiculous; I think any real fan would prefer tiny black bars on top and bottom rather than having a bit of the sides of the picture cut off, but the fact is that that's what the idiots  do. So I wouldn't get my hopes up about actually getting a 1.85:1 version of the movie  Angry

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« Reply #396 on: May 31, 2012, 12:17:26 PM »



3) Don't get your hopes up about having the movie released in 1.85:1. Almost all dvd/BR of 1.85:1 movies seem to crop it to fit the 1.78:1 hdtv screen. It's totally ridiculous; I think any real fan would prefer tiny black bars on top and bottom rather than having a bit of the sides of the picture cut off, but the fact is that that's what the idiots  do. So I wouldn't get my hopes up about actually getting a 1.85:1 version of the movie  Angry

That's again wrong. Most films which were shot for 1,85:1 are on their DVDs in 1,85:1. My OUTA is in 1.85:1, and that's basically the same DVD Warner sold in the whole world.

But that does not necessarily mean that your TV show the complete 1;85:1 image.

But frankly said in theatres you also often don't see the complete image of a film.

And besides the difference between 1,85:1 and 1,78:1 is only marginal.

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« Reply #397 on: May 31, 2012, 12:34:23 PM »

So now the playing of Cockeye's tune in the mausoleum is diegetic? That isn't an audio memory that Noodles is experiencing, that the audience gets to share? Noodles is actually hearing it playing through some kind of amazing-for-1968 sound system cleverly hidden in the "haven"? Well, that right there ruins things for me. Not to mention the fact that its presence is "explained" in a way that raises more questions than it answers. Max had a tape of Cockeye playing his theme? A tape from a performance from 1933 or earlier? Did Cockeye cut a record once and Max saved it and committed it to tape once that format became generally available? Or was Max able to remember the tune so well that later he transcribed it for a musician who was able to perform just as Cockeye had all those years ago? And all just to be able to get to Mr. Williams' poise at the proper moment. I call BS on this whole element.


I just watched the scene in the mausoleum again (the scene in the 229MV, not the restored scene). The music of Cockeye's Tune is definitely playing in the mausoleum. It starts when Noodles opens the door, stops when he closes it, then since he is looking around to see what the hell is going on, he opens the door again, it starts again, and finally he shuts the door again and it stops.

So it was definitely playing on some sort of sensor -- it played when the door opened, and stopped when the door shut. Noodles doesn't know what the hell is going on and is looking around for the source of it. In the restored scene we find out that a tape of it was sent to the cemetery to play in the mausoleum, but in the 229MV it remains a mystery, just like the whole mystery of who erected the mausoleum. Whether you prefer the 229MV or the restored version, the music is definitely playing in the mausoleum.


I noticed another interesting point -- as the music is playing, and Noodles is looking at the names on the tombs of each of his friends, at one point the music switches from Cockeye's Tune to the Main Theme of OUATIA. Obviously, the theme was not playing in the mausoleum! I guess the theme playing there is meant imply that Noodles is recalling his childhood: as Cockeye's song is playing in the mausoleum and Noodles is looking around, he is recalling his childhood, symbolized by the playing of the main theme. Maybe the fact that Cockeye's Tune turns into the Main Theme is also a reference to the whole idea of the mixing of dream and reality, Noodles's real past with his present dreams, and the whole idea that cinema is a dream

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« Reply #398 on: May 31, 2012, 02:41:53 PM »

I just watched the scene in the mausoleum again (the scene in the 229MV, not the restored scene). The music of Cockeye's Tune is definitely playing in the mausoleum. It starts when Noodles opens the door, stops when he closes it, then since he is looking around to see what the hell is going on, he opens the door again, it starts again, and finally he shuts the door again and it stops.

So it was definitely playing on some sort of sensor -- it played when the door opened, and stopped when the door shut. Noodles doesn't know what the hell is going on and is looking around for the source of it. In the restored scene we find out that a tape of it was sent to the cemetery to play in the mausoleum, but in the 229MV it remains a mystery, just like the whole mystery of who erected the mausoleum. Whether you prefer the 229MV or the restored version, the music is definitely playing in the mausoleum.


I noticed another interesting point -- as the music is playing, and Noodles is looking at the names on the tombs of each of his friends, at one point the music switches from Cockeye's Tune to the Main Theme of OUATIA. Obviously, the theme was not playing in the mausoleum! I guess the theme playing there is meant imply that Noodles is recalling his childhood: as Cockeye's song is playing in the mausoleum and Noodles is looking around, he is recalling his childhood, symbolized by the playing of the main theme. Maybe the fact that Cockeye's Tune turns into the Main Theme is also a reference to the whole idea of the mixing of dream and reality, Noodles's real past with his present dreams, and the whole idea that cinema is a dream

Thanks for checking  Wink

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« Reply #399 on: May 31, 2012, 03:54:17 PM »

Thanks for checking  Wink

1) I never really picked up on that point of the music playing in the mausoleum until I read it somewhere (I believe in STDWD). Perhaps they should have used a different audio track: I mean, when music is diegetic is sounds different, but in this scene it is sounds like it's on the same audio track that  rest of the score does (and the same track that the Main Theme -- which is definitely not diagetic -- is playing in the same scene). I am not sure if I am using the right words, but you know what I mean, how the music sounds different when it is diegetic/internal/playing IN the scene, as opposed to playing OVER the scene as most of a film score usually does. So maybe you can argue that Cockeye's song in the mausoleum should have sounded different than the rest of the score. But I guess that Leone had De Niro open and close the door multiple times in order to emphasize the point.



2) On an unrelated note: The more I think about it now, the more I realize that if Leone had indeed been able to release his preferred 4 and a half hour version of the movie -- with these scenes with the limo, etc. -- this movie perhaps would be considered more of a "Mystery" movie, it almost plays like a PI movie or something: (put differently, the Noodles character is as much Philip Marlowe as Little Caesar  Wink) But in the 229MV, all these questions about who brought Noodles back are really just peripheral to the major themes -- (the Gangster stuff being a vehicle for the themes of) Time, Dreams, Fantasy mixing with Reality, Cinema being a dream, etc. Maybe it's better as is, without turning into too much of a literal detective story?


3) And finally, I just read that interview with Scorcese that Mat Viola was kind enough to translate. Looks like Scorcese may hbe looking at restoring another 20 minutes, in addition to the 20-25 minutes already restored. (I guess this would combine for the 45-50 minutes of "significant material" Leone wanted in the film). It's not clear whether they have found those additional 20 minutes or not, and if they do put it in, what's going to happen to it: are they going to have yet another showing at some festival, this time with ALL the additional restored stuff? Why did they rush it to Cannes 2012 if they may soon have more material? I guess this may delay wide theatrical and/or dvd release, till they decide on what their final version is. I just hope that when they do release it on dvd, it includes EVERYTHING. Even if the film quality is drastically different: let's just get everything once and for all  Smiley As long as I know that there are people out there like Scorcese and the Leone children with the interest, capability, access, and money to restore The Master's works, I have hope that we may eventually get the best possible versions  Smiley

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« Reply #400 on: May 31, 2012, 07:20:15 PM »

In the restored scene we find out that a tape of it was sent to the cemetery to play in the mausoleum, but in the 229MV it remains a mystery, just like the whole mystery of who erected the mausoleum.

I am so glad the extended version clarifies this. I had always found the music rather awkward in this scene because there seemed to be no explanation for it other than background music.

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« Reply #401 on: May 31, 2012, 08:26:56 PM »

I am so glad the extended version clarifies this. I had always found the music rather awkward in this scene because there seemed to be no explanation for it other than background music.

well you do see Noodles turning his head back and forth and looking for something. He is actually looking for the source of the music, but that is not made clear. It seems like he could just be looking around in general confusion about the whole mausoleum. I understood that he was looking for the music, but only because I read it in STDWD (Frayling was familiar with all the deleted scenes)

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« Reply #402 on: June 06, 2012, 09:51:54 AM »

But it destroys some of the film's narrative brilliance. For that alone it is a very "bad" scene. I wish Leone had never shot it. It wasn't in the shooting script.
It does not destroy any of the film's narrative brilliance. Admittedly, it would have been more of a shock to hear Harmonica's instrument in the tavern after not seeing the scene where he 'rises from the dead' at the station,  BUT I am happy to see every reel that Leone shot. And to be honest I am sure he if he was around will smile indulgently knowing that people want to see every inch of film he shot. I remember  reading in Christopher Frayling's biography where he quoted Leone as saying that when he was dead Leone would want to be remembered as entertaining people. Lets not split hairs too much abt what Leone wanted or not wanted. He wanted to entertain, mesmerise and fascinate us with his masterful mise en scene and elegant camera angles Smiley))

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« Reply #403 on: June 06, 2012, 10:22:30 AM »

It does not destroy any of the film's narrative brilliance.

Oh it does. After seeing the film 15 or 20 times without that scene it was quite a shock to see it as part of the film.

I copied my explanation from another thread:

"
It is mainly because I think the film loses some of its narrative quality in the first 40 min because:

1. It is indeed superfluous and it is not very remarkable the way it is filmed. (But not a bad scene either)

2. Without the scene comes a direct cut from Woody Strode crushing down to the close-up of McBain's shotgun which then blazes. A beautiful cut to connect the 1st with the second scene and similar to the harsh cut from Fonda's shooting gun to the shrieking of the train which connects the 2nd with the 3rd scene.

3. Without the Rising scene you don't know what had exactly happened as it seems that all 4 which were introduced to us are dead or could be dead. And remember that at the end of the 2nd scene the whole McBain family, to which we were introduced for several minutes, got shot too. It is very daring and irritating that you don't know for over 20 min what had happened to Harmonica, and for even a much longer time what the film could be about. And I like this unusual way to tell a story very much.

4. Without the Rising scene the moment of Harmonica's 2nd appearance in the film which reveals that he is still alive (remember Bronson wasn't a star back then) is much more fascinating. When you for so long don't know what happened in the first scene the eerie Harmonica sound out of the dark and the thrown lamp which brings his face into the light is much more effective.

Believe me, if you have seen and enjoyed OUTW for 20 years without the Rising scene, it is very disappointing to see it now in. It destroys some of the greatness of the long and slow beginning. Somehow the including of this scene really bugs me."

I also liked it to see this scene, but not as actual part of the movie.


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« Reply #404 on: June 06, 2012, 11:01:45 AM »

1) I never really picked up on that point of the music playing in the mausoleum until I read it somewhere (I believe in STDWD). Perhaps they should have used a different audio track: I mean, when music is diegetic is sounds different, but in this scene it is sounds like it's on the same audio track that  rest of the score does (and the same track that the Main Theme -- which is definitely not diagetic -- is playing in the same scene). I am not sure if I am using the right words, but you know what I mean, how the music sounds different when it is diegetic/internal/playing IN the scene, as opposed to playing OVER the scene as most of a film score usually does. So maybe you can argue that Cockeye's song in the mausoleum should have sounded different than the rest of the score. But I guess that Leone had De Niro open and close the door multiple times in order to emphasize the point.
I don't know if it is a Leone thing or an Italian film industry thing but this kind of thing comes up a lot in SL's films. I remember watching the trading post scene in OUATITW for the first time and enjoying what was obviously the non-diegetic harmonica music, only to have the camera suddenly reveal that Harmonica was playing the harmonica in the scene. An American film would never have done the scene like that; American soundtracks always assign different "sonic values"--for lack of a better way to put it--to diegetic and non-diegetic sounds. Thus it is never possible to confuse the two in American films. I've often wondered whether Leone was even aware of the diegetic/non-diegetic issue in the trading post scene, or if he was in fact aware of it but was purposely playing with audience understanding of where the music was coming from.

In the case of the crypt scene, there is no performer to pan to, and there is no visual representation of where the sound might be coming from. But it is now obvious, due to the inserted footage in the scene, that Leone intended us to understand that music was playing in the vault. I have seen the film many times since 1985, in cinemas and home video, and have never read the scene that way. And I have to say, the scene has been diminished in my eyes because of this over-explicitness. Until Groggy told me how he read the scene, I was happy to believe that the sene was about something else--that Noodles is having an epiphany of sorts, that he is contemplating the Ineffable, perhaps, or the Thingness in things, or whatever. But to find out that he's just checking out the sound system in the crypt is rather deflating. Without the new footage, it could still be a matter of interpretation. Groggy could read the scene his way, and I, while acknowledging the validity of the possibility of that reading, could have still read it my preferred way. But no more. Possibilities are closed off by the explicitness, thus impoverishing what had been a very rich scene.

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