NEW DIRECTORS CUT

[noodles_leone]

This is becoming more and more off topic but... Sony just unveiled World's first 4K OLED TV.

http://mashable.com/2013/01/08/sony-4k-oled-tv/

[drinkanddestroy]

This is becoming more and more off topic but... Sony just unveiled World's first 4K OLED TV.

http://mashable.com/2013/01/08/sony-4k-oled-tv/

if you are worried about staying on topic, you can continue the conversation in the thread dedicated to technical discussion, of tv's, blu ray players, etc. http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=11173.0

[noodles_leone]

if you are worried about staying on topic

Actually I'm not

[drinkanddestroy]

even if the new blu ray image looks less bad on some players than on others, is it absolutely certain that -- on all players -- the image is far worse than the image on the 229MV?

[drinkanddestroy]

I am a fan of the movie and applauded Andrea Leone's efforts to purchase the rights and restore a version which he thought was dear to his father's heart. However the restored version is 250 mins long whereas Sergio Leone's version was 270 mins and the restoration seems to have been influenced by people's memories, preferences, imagination and fantasies of what they think the movie should look like. Some seem to quite like the new version but others describe it as a redux version without the director's approval which is far removed from being a fair or true representation of any version of the movie made by Sergio Leone.

  

Nobody said this restored version is the version exactly as  Leone wanted it; they said it is closer to the version Leone wanted. It won't be the exact version he wanted until they restore the extra 20 minutes; Scorcese himself has said this. (I'm still not exactly sure why they didn't restore the extra scenes (maybe they haven't found any versions of those scenes that can be used?)

[Senza]

I might wait until they release this particular version of OUATIA, I recently downloaded it and thought the deleted scenes were great. I wonder what else was left out that might've been important to the story.

[drinkanddestroy]

I might wait until they release this particular version of OUATIA, I recently downloaded it and thought the deleted scenes were great. I wonder what else was left out that might've been important to the story.

if you have the patience/interest to wade through this thread, I mention all the scenes that Leone preferred to leave in but had to cut due to time constraints. They're listed in the chapter on OUATIA in STDWD

[Senza]

I think I might wait for the book. Does the book go more in depth with the deleted scenes from his other movies?

[drinkanddestroy]

I think I might wait for the book. Does the book go more in depth with the deleted scenes from his other movies?

well other than OUATIA, the "deleted scenes" that exist from his other movies have been restored already. GBU, OUATITW, and DYS were cut for American release, and are currently restored; FOD and FAFDM were never cut except for very minor places. Yes, STDWD will discuss lots of those initial cuts, but virtually all, (with the exception of OUATIA), are now back in the movie, whatever language version you are watching. The differences between the various versions of the films right now are mostly things that basically only hardcore fans will notice and discuss here, but there's little that the casual fan would care all that much about.

Over time, you'll see, as you look through the threads, what I am talking about. For example, the opening scene of OUATITW -- more than 8 minutes of only natural sounds -- has a few extra shots in some European versions, making the scene a few more seconds longer, definitely not more than a minute.

In FAFDM, in the scene where Monco and Mortimer are beaten up by indio's men, some European versions have a few extra shots that don't appear in the American version.

In cases where there were major cuts upon release and scenes were later restored (eg. the 16 minutes of GBU) STDWD will often detail those scenes. In situations where it's just a few shots here or there within a scene that are different, STDWD doesn't bother mentioning it.

These individual threads exist discussing each cut scene in the appropriate movie but off the top of my head, I will give you a quick rundown, off the top of my head, to the best of my ability:

FOD: all versions are just about the same.

FAFDM: some European versions have a few extra shots with a tiny snatch of extra dialogue in the beating scene

GBU: After the Rome premiere, which was close to 3 hours, Leone chose to remove one scene (the "Cave" or "Grotto" scene) and otherwise released the film in Italy as is. For the American release print, United Artists cut it to 161 minutes, the British cut it to 148 minutes. On initial dvd release in the late 90's, the deleted scenes were available as a bonus feature, in Italian with English subtitles. For 2003 dvd release, all these scenes were put back into the film with English audio (Eastwood and Wallach recording the missing dialogue in 2003, a voice actor doing Van Cleef's, since he was dead), including the Grotto scene; every Leone fan I've spoken to believes that A) Grotto scene should never have been inserted back into the film itself, but included as a bonus feature, and B) that the MGM restorer John Kirk, popularly known as John Jerk, would do us all a favor if he the next man who gives it to him up the ass would be carrying some excruciatingly painful venereal disease.
One difference with the restored version: the scene of Tuco getting tortured is trimmed somewhat in the American version from the Italian; the official reason given by John Jerk is that the film was damaged too badly and couldn't be used on the extra couple of minutes of torture. it's included as a bonus feature. (I am not sure if those 2 minutes have been restored back into the film in the Italian version of the 2003 restoration, or whether they are also only a bonus feature. The 2--3 restoration also changed the gunshots, Jerk dubbed in new gunshots

OUATITW: a significant amount was cut from American initial release, mostly restored by now. But there are some leftover problems from the cutting that occurred on initial release. I suggest you read the Watchdog ARTICLE that Jordan Krug scanned, it's one of the top sticky threads in the OUATITW board, it has all the info you will need. (In a very brief nutshell: there are various versions of the opening scene; the American version today is shorter than the Italian and other Europena versions, by up to  a minute. Nothing changes substantively, the whole scene is natural sound; we just get a few extra shots of the gunmen, an extra minor bit of whimpering dialogue from the train master, etc.... There are a few extra shiots in the scene of the McBain massacre.... The American version has a scene of "Harmonica Rising" that possibly should be cut and was only re-inserted in there to fill in the gaps for other scenes that were once cut, but since restored.... The end music is screwed up (the film should end with main theme music, not the Cheyenne theme). All this will be revealed to you in the Watchdog article

DYS: significant amounts cut upon initial release, has all been put back now so far as I know. The Ameican theatrical version cut huge explanatory scenes; the Europena versions snipped small but crucial parts of the final flashback. But so far as I can tell, curently, the version available on dvd in America and Europe is pretty mych the same, and the full version. (The only thing that has been slightly trimmed is the Mao Tse-Tung quote in the opening; the full quote continues on to say, 'by which one class overthrows another).
The real issue with DYS is not the scenes, but the soundtrack: we have had extensive discussions here about the soundtrak being significantly fucked up and we need a serious audio restoration. But the scenes you see on the dvd are pretty much the same, full version everywhere.

OUATIA: as I mentioned, look for Frayling to list those in STDWD. (until the recent restoration undertaken by Scorcese) the difference here has nothing to do with regions. The 229-minute version was the longest one available anywhere; 45-50 minutes of extra footage existed that leone really preferred would have been in the movie. That is discussed in the earlier pages of the present thread.

if you want further discussion of these scenes/differences between versions, you will find existing threads in each of the boards. You can PM me if you have trouble finding something, I'll try to help you.

But i'd also say that unless and until you know all the movies backward and forward, inside and out, don't worry yet about the differences between versions. Most of it is nerdy stuff and not stuff that significantly affects the film. Enjoy the movies, enjoy the book, once you become a nerd you can worry about getting the dvd of every region and knwing every difference in version. (Believe me, being a nerd is a miserable life, you will never be happy, knowing that SOMEWHERE OUT THERE, another scene exists with 2 extra seconds of some shot! Ignorance is bliss. enjoy the movies, enjoy reading about 'em, don't be overly concerned yet about minor differences in versions  

if you do wanna discuss specific changes/other versions of movies, please respond in the appropriate threads of those movies, if possible  

[stanton]

FAFDM: some Europena versions have a few extra shots with a tiny nstahc of dialogue in the beating scene

 ... and 3 more short cuts

But all in all nothing substantial.

One difference with the restored version: the scene of Tuco getting tortured is trimmed somewhat in the American version from the Italian; the official reason given by John Jerk is that the film was damaged too badly and coukdn't be used on the extra couple of minutes of torture. it's included as a bonus feature. 9I am not sure if those 2 minutres have been restiored back into the film in the Italian version of the 2003 restoration, or whether they are also only a bonus feature. 

The bonus beating scene was never part of any released version. Probably in a pre-release version, probably not.
The difference between the Italian and the MGM beating scene are a few alternative shots towards the end of that scene. The runtime is probalby the same, and I just don't remember if the score was also slightly different.

There are a few extra shiots in the scene of the McBain massacre....

No extra shots, the Paramount only cuts half a second too early in one shot.

The main difference between OUTIA and the westerns is that for OUTA Leoen made the cuts on the released version ,and we don't know if he ever had reinserted these material, but in his SWs the cuts were made by the distributors against Leone's will.

Not sure about that additional flashback scene of DYS though. Maybe that's another case where Leone took it out. I like it, but it was restored in the 90s, and I'm not sure if it was ever part of a released version before.

[drinkanddestroy]

The main difference between OUTIA and the westerns is that for OUTA Leoen made the cuts on the released version ,and we don't know if he ever had reinserted these material, but in his SWs the cuts were made by the distributors against Leone's will.

Not sure about that additional flashback scene of DYS though. Maybe that's another case where Leone took it out. I like it, but it was restored in the 90s, and I'm not sure if it was ever part of a released version before.

according to Frayling, the final extended flashback scene in DYS was trimmed by the exhibiitors or distributors. They feared that as the final music swells with that extended flashback, viewers would assume the movie was ending, that it was the final scene, and would walk out before it was over. To me that seems like a silly reason to cut a scene: who the fuck walks out before the credits roll?


as for your comment that the cuts to Leone's SW's "were made by the distributors against Leone's will": I'll just say one thing: as we know they only dubbed the English language version for 161 minutes; if Leone was involved in the English-language dubbing process, I assume that means he knew they were not dubbing certain scenes, so he'd have known it would only be 161 minutes. Of course, the fact that he knew doesn't necessarily mean he was happy with it, but it would seem it didn't come as a shock. On the other hand, even OUATITW and DYS, which also had significant cuts in America, there was no problem of missing dubing when they restored it later on; that means that unlike with GBU, they dubbed all the scenes right away into Englis, even though some of them weren't shown in theaters till years later. Why did they dub everything in OUATITW and DYS, but not with GBU? maybe cuz it was a different distributor, and they had different ideas about dubing the whole movie vs. dubbing only the scenes you are gonna exhibit. Or, maybe they decided to cut it at the last minute, after dubbing was completed.

What i guess I am trying to say that the fact that for GBU they only dubbed the scenes they were gonna show, while for OUATITW and DYS they dubbed everything, perhaps that means that cutting the GBU scenes was planned all along whereas for DYS and OUATITW they decided to cut it late in the game?

the difference would be, maybe the cutting for GBU was done with leone's knowledge all along. In other words, maybe for GBU, they told Leone, "we can only show 160 minutes, so you choose the 15 or so minutes to cut," whereas with DYS and OUATITW, the distributors did whatever they wanted without consulting Leone. if this theory is correct, then perhaps we can consider the shorter version of GBU to be more of a "leone-approved" version than the shorter versions of DYS and OUATITW?

(btw, I remember now in the Movie Watchdog article Jordan Krug posted RE: the various versions of OUATITW, that it said that early screenings  of OYATITW in Chicago did have the full version, it was cut only on wide release. So that would seem that for OUATITW, the decision to shorten it was made very late in the game, and perhaps that means it was more likely done  without Leone's knowledge. But for DYS, we don't know when the decision was made, but the fact is that they dubbed all the scenes including the ones they removed, as opposed to with GBU. [and both GBU and DYS were distributed by United Artists]. Does that mean the DYS shortening was done later in the game and therefore without Leone's knowledge/consent?

[Senza]

All this info!
If there ever was a STWTD online, I think this site would be it.

[drinkanddestroy]

can anyone confirm if the new restored OUATIA Italian dvd/blu ray is indeed region B/2 PAL locked? (The Dollars movies on Italian blu ray are all officially listed as region B and PAL, but every one of them is actually region-free and plays fine on my American blu ray player (I've heard that the bonus features are in PAL, though I never tried 'em). For each one, board members advised me that the feature was region-free so I bought the blu ray, and they played just fine on my American blu ray player

So the fact this restored OUATIA blu ray is listed as Region B/PAL doesn't scare me on its own. I am hoping someone can confirm for me whether the main feature is indeed Region B/PAL locked?

Thanks

[drinkanddestroy]

Thanks for the info, chris. I suspected it would be this way since in all the news articles that were released about the restoration, it said that the Leone family has purchased the Italian rights to the movie.

I'm not sure what that means for us in America...

[Senza]

...or for us in Australia