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Author Topic: NEW DIRECTORS CUT  (Read 222010 times)
stanton
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« Reply #225 on: April 27, 2012, 01:19:25 PM »

My reliable sources include Cahiers Du Cinema (1984), Sergio Leone (1984), Andrea Leone (has lived with the movie for most of his life) and Frayling (some errors & misunderstandings in other parts of his book).

I don't think you have any reliable sources from the 1980s to match these.

Running times of DVDs, Blu-rays, TV & VHS versions are not relevant other than to confuse writers of articles in newspapers, magazines and web sites who incorrectly assume that the running time of a NTSC version is the same as that of the original theatrical release.


No. Historically PAL & NTSC use different frame rates. This means that a NTSC version of a movie is approx 4% longer that a PAL version. It doesn't contain any extra footage, there is just a small slowdown in the action which is not noticeable to most people.  PAL versions of OUATIA are approx. 219 mins and NTSC versions approx 229 mins.


Running times of DVDs, Blu-rays, TV & VHS versions are reliable sources as long as they contain uncut versions.

And NTSC is not slower than cinema, it is in fact Pal which is faster than cinema.

NTSC has a frame rate which in the end is identical with the cinema frame rate of 24 fr/s. The runtime of a 229 min Blu is identical to the theatrical runtime.

Pal has a frame rate of 25 fr/s and is for that 4 % faster than a theatrical or a NTSC version. But you can always detect the theatrical runtime by adding 4%.
Anyway all uncut releases from the 80s to nowadays contain a 228 or 229 min version (Pal versions running 219 - 220 min).


Frayling mentions, just like D&D said, always a 229 min version in the film's chapter. The 218 min in the data part of his book is most likely a typo.
I have a new German book which lists a lot of theatrical versions and DVD/Blu versions from several European countries and all have the 228/9 min runtime.

Here's an overview over Uk versions: http://www.bbfc.co.uk/AFF014538/
The theatrical version from 1984 ran 228 min and 20 sec ( and was cut by 16 sec).

A film guide from 1985 says also 229 min.
But Oreste de Fornari's book has also the 218 min.

I assume there was some misinformation back in the 80s, and then then some sources quoted from this.



« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 02:11:30 PM by stanton » Logged

drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #226 on: April 27, 2012, 01:37:18 PM »



I like Frayling and he would be my number one choice for the commentary on the Blu-ray of a fully restored version of OUATIA.  Something To Do With Death is a massive undertaking and source of information and would have involved a lot of hard work and research.

Regrettably it contains many errors and misunderstandings quite apart from running times.

An obvious example is P.430: "Noodles leaves New York in 1933 (shuffling off to Buffalo, by train)"

So in the movie Noodles goes to a Bus, Ferry & Train Terminal.  He walks to a kiosk marked Green Bus Line.  He speaks to a vendor wearing a Green Bus Line badge and purchases a ticket to Buffalo.  Quite specifically he says "First Bus".  There are three arrows, one points in the direction of the ferry, one in the direction of the trains and one in the direction of the buses.  Noodles heads off in the direction of the arrow marked buses.  Nevertheless some board members still agree with Frayling that Noodles catches a train.  Hmmm.


True, Noodles clearly takes a bus, and I never understood why Frayling says "train."

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« Reply #227 on: April 27, 2012, 01:58:47 PM »

it's just that the final scene with the end music and the words "Once Upon a Time in the West" that were changed and the "Scorcese version" never fixed; but it's not that any of the actual movie footage from the original theatrical release is missing, no?



Well, we had tried to make this clear somewhere in the OUTW section of this forum. There are about 70 sec missing in the first scene, from which Scorsese only restored 15 sec. And the so called Rising scene was never part of all uncut original theatrical versions.
And, yes, Scorsese not even fixed the obviously wrong music in the last 90 sec of the film.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 03:09:20 PM by stanton » Logged

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« Reply #228 on: April 27, 2012, 03:13:55 PM »

Well, we had tried to make this clear somewhere in the OUTW section of this forum. There are about 70 sec missing in the first scene, from which Scorsese only restored 15 sec.

Did Leone necessarily want all that in the first scene? Was all the extra time in the first scene in the original Italian release?

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« Reply #229 on: April 28, 2012, 02:07:18 AM »

Did Leone necessarily want all that in the first scene? Was all the extra time in the first scene in the original Italian release?

Why not? He never complained about the theatrical version.
And yes, at the moment there is no doubt for me that all released versions in Italy, France, Germany and other countries were the same version, which was also prepared at first uncut for the USA and the UK before the film was cut down to 144 respective 145 min.


Here's a scan of the detailed article which explains how it could happen that the Paramount version is not exactly identical to the original theatrical version
http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=10564.0


« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 02:14:49 AM by stanton » Logged

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« Reply #230 on: April 28, 2012, 12:58:09 PM »

http://www.fibre2fashion.com/news/fashion-news/newsdetails.aspx?news_id=110538


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cigar joe
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« Reply #231 on: April 29, 2012, 04:12:47 AM »

the jist of which is this paragraph:

The film, Leone’s last, originally premiered out of competition at Cannes in 1984, at 229 minutes, the same version of which was released in European theaters that spring. The newly restored version to premiere this year at Cannes brings Leone’s masterpiece back to life, featuring roughly 20 minutes of additional scenes that have never before been seen by audiences. Through the work of The Film Foundation and through funding by Gucci, Cineteca di Bologna and L’Immagine Ritrovata are restoring the 229-minute version utilizing the original camera negative held by the US rightsholder, Regency Enterprises, along with the over 20 minutes of additional footage found and preserved by the Leone family.

sounds like a total of 40 minutes, hummmmmm. Cheesy

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« Reply #232 on: April 29, 2012, 04:18:23 AM »

Sounds like a total of 20 min Wink

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« Reply #233 on: April 29, 2012, 04:25:08 AM »

Its says: "featuring roughly 20 minutes of additional scenes that have never before been seen by audiences."

then below : "along with the over 20 minutes of additional footage found and preserved by the Leone family."

Its either poor writing or 40 minutes. Take your pick  Wink

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« Reply #234 on: April 29, 2012, 05:12:51 AM »

so withoput getting into all the technical stuff about the difference between PAL and NTSC, is it correct to say that, in a nutshell,  the movie that was shown at Cannes and European theaters in in 1984 was basically the exact same version as what we currently have on region 1 dvd?

if so, and assuming it is correct that only 25 minutes will now be restored, can we assume that when the restored version is released on Region 1 dvd, it will be 254 minutes?


--------------

As we've discussed many times, Frayling cites Leone (pp. 458-456 of STDWD) saying that his ideal running time would have been "between 4:10 -- 4:25" but he very reluctantly cut 45-50 minutes of  "significant material."
The math seems a tad off: 45-50 minutes added to 3:49 would make the movie between 4:34 -- 4:39, not 4:10 -- 4:25. Be that as it may, at this link http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1302.msg146836#msg146836 I listed the scenes that Frayling says were cut, and I think we all believe the restored scenes will be from those scenes, if not all.

Anyway, (assuming Frayling's story is correct,  and assuming that there aren't technical problems like damaged tape) it seems strange to me that Leone's kids and Scorcese, et. al. would want to restore the movie, yet not to the full amount that Leone would have wanted it. I mean, even if theoretically they believe that some of those scenes are bad and don't belong, wouldn't it make the most sense that they would want to advance Leone's vision of the ideal version of the movie, rather than their own opinion of the ideal version? Even if let's say there are a few bad scenes among them, I think they would want to show it Leone wanted it, without regard for their own opinions of those scenes.

p.s. In that post I linked to above, where I made a numbered listed of those scenes that were cut, and mentioned the ones I think are most important to be restored are 2,3,5,6, and 8...  

Well I want to know your opinion of that: Write the numbers of  the scenes from the list list that you feel are most important to have restored!
(probably so that you can set yourself up for disappointment when those turn out to NOT be among the restored scenes  Cry)

« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 05:47:24 AM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #235 on: April 29, 2012, 06:02:54 AM »

The experts seem to agree that the longer version (269-270 mins) has never been shown to the public. So yes, ignoring the running times, the movie that went around Europe had more or less the same content albeit with very minor differences. For example I think some seconds depicting graphic violence were taken out of the English release.

And yes, provided only 25 minutes or so is added to the movie when it's released on disc, the running time of an NTSC DVD or Blu-ray should be about 255 minutes.






(yeah I know that about 2 minutes were removed from the movie in England prints due to violence; according to Frayling, Leone himself oversaw the removal of those 2 minutes. But I am not worried about that essentially considering that 2:27 v version).

I just want to ascertain is what the running time will be when it is released on Region 1 dvd: If that official Cannes article is correct that the restored scenes will total 25 minutes, and if the dvd will have the exact version of the movie that is shown at Cannes, then we can expect that when that glorious day comes that we get the dvd and stick it into our players and finally begin watching it, we will have a 4:14 movie


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« Reply #236 on: April 29, 2012, 06:17:13 AM »

so withoput getting into all the technical stuff about the difference between PAL and NTSC, is it correct to say that, in a nutshell,  the movie that was shown at Cannes and European theaters in in 1984 was basically the exact same version as what we currently have on region 1 dvd?



Yes ...


so withoput getting into all the technical stuff about the difference between PAL and NTSC, is it correct to say that, in a nutshell,  the movie that was shown at Cannes and European theaters in in 1984 was basically the exact same version as what we currently have on region 1 dvd?

if so, and assuming it is correct that only 25 minutes will now be restored, can we assume that when the restored version is released on Region 1 dvd, it will be 254 minutes?


--------------

As we've discussed many times, Frayling cites Leone (pp. 458-456 of STDWD) saying that his ideal running time would have been "between 4:10 -- 4:25" but he very reluctantly cut 45-50 minutes of  "significant material."
The math seems a tad off: 45-50 minutes added to 3:49 would make the movie between 4:34 -- 4:39, not 4:10 -- 4:25. Be that as it may, at this link http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=1302.msg146836#msg146836 I listed the scenes that Frayling says were cut, and I think we all believe the restored scenes will be from those scenes, if not all.

Anyway, (assuming Frayling's story is correct,  and assuming that there aren't technical problems like damaged tape) it seems strange to me that Leone's kids and Scorcese, et. al. would want to restore the movie, yet not to the full amount that Leone would have wanted it. I mean, even if theoretically they believe that some of those scenes are bad and don't belong, wouldn't it make the most sense that they would want to advance Leone's vision of the ideal version of the movie, rather than their own opinion of the ideal version? Even if let's say there are a few bad scenes among them, I think they would want to show it Leone wanted it, without regard for their own opinions of those scenes.



Leone's statements about how much was cut and what the ideal runtime is shouldn't be taken too verbatim. In the end he never made that ideal version, so he himself may only have guessed how much was lost if he had the chance to fine-cut the stock.

I have here an interview which was made in Germany in 1984. Leone mentions again a 270 min version as his favourite length and expresses his hope that "in 2 1/2 or 3 years the Italian TV may show it", but he does not know if this is possible because of the film's producer. Well, it never happened.

I'm definitely sure that reinserting only 25 min is much less than Leone wanted. But with so much different statements about the new version we won't be sure until it actually was screened at Cannes.

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« Reply #237 on: April 29, 2012, 06:19:09 AM »

Its says: "featuring roughly 20 minutes of additional scenes that have never before been seen by audiences."

then below : "along with the over 20 minutes of additional footage found and preserved by the Leone family."

Its either poor writing or 40 minutes. Take your pick  Wink

I read it without any doubt as twice naming the same 20 min.

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« Reply #238 on: April 29, 2012, 07:43:55 AM »

What I’d like to know is why a year ago Raffaella was saying that adding 40 minutes would constitute the “director’s cut” and now, when it appears only 25 minutes have been added, she’s still saying “it will be wonderful to see the restored version on the big screen and with the additional footage of the original director's cut.” Did Leone’s ghost appear between then and now and instruct her to remove 15 minutes?

Of course, I don’t think the Leone children can be trusted when it comes to what constitutes the “director’s cut”, considering that 2 or 3 years ago when all of this was first announced Raffaella said “in collaboration with Sky we want to restore forty minutes of new scenes that we have found. Mind you, we will not reassemble the film; it will stay what my father did. We’d love to show, however, perhaps in a screening at a festival, this interesting footage.”

So, originally they weren’t planning to insert the 40 minutes into the existing film at all, then a year or so later suddenly the plan was to insert the 40 minutes and declare it the “director’s cut”, and now, when all is said and done (maybe), only 25 out of those 40 minutes actually belong in the “director’s cut.”

Apparently Sergio’s ghost can’t make up his mind.

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« Reply #239 on: April 29, 2012, 04:58:40 PM »

the jist of which is this paragraph:

The film, Leone’s last, originally premiered out of competition at Cannes in 1984, at 229 minutes, the same version of which was released in European theaters that spring. The newly restored version to premiere this year at Cannes brings Leone’s masterpiece back to life, featuring roughly 20 minutes of additional scenes that have never before been seen by audiences. Through the work of The Film Foundation and through funding by Gucci, Cineteca di Bologna and L’Immagine Ritrovata are restoring the 229-minute version utilizing the original camera negative held by the US rightsholder, Regency Enterprises, along with the over 20 minutes of additional footage found and preserved by the Leone family.

sounds like a total of 40 minutes, hummmmmm. Cheesy

the second sentence says "... along with the over 20 minutes of additional footage..." So "the" means it is referring to the footage that was just mentioned previously. I have no doubt that this article is referring to a total of 20 minutes of new footage, not 40.

Anyway, if it really will only be 20 or 25 minutes, I hope they'd put the other 20-25 minutes (comprising the rest of the 45-50 minutes that Leone wanted to have in the movie, according to Frayling) on the dvd, at least as an extra. But I won't expect that.

I am really befuddled as to why after all these years, when this great moment happens that they will restore Leone's movie, they wouldn't restore all the scenes Leone wanted in it

« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 05:33:03 AM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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