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Author Topic: NEW DIRECTORS CUT  (Read 227168 times)
MatViola
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« Reply #330 on: May 20, 2012, 12:18:20 PM »

Just in case anyone's gonna be in France in September:

http://www.lefilmfrancais.com/109841/il-etait-une-fois-en-amerique-de-retour-dans-les-salles


"Once Upon a Time in America back in theaters. Carlotta Films will release the new version, extended and restored, the masterpiece by Sergio Leone in French theaters in September."

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« Reply #331 on: May 20, 2012, 12:35:33 PM »

How does the sound remix factor into your theory?

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« Reply #332 on: May 20, 2012, 02:26:42 PM »

How does the sound remix factor into your theory?
Can't speak for Drink, but here's how it lays with me: When watching GBU, I prefer the shorter cut; when watching BBC, I prefer the standard (longer) cut.

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« Reply #333 on: May 20, 2012, 02:52:29 PM »

Quote
The explanation about the construction of the mausoleum and the recording of Cockeye's tune was definitely helpful.
So now the playing of Cockeye's tune in the mausoleum is diegetic? That isn't an audio memory that Noodles is experiencing, that the audience gets to share? Noodles is actually hearing it playing through some kind of amazing-for-1968 sound system cleverly hidden in the "haven"? Well, that right there ruins things for me. Not to mention the fact that its presence is "explained" in a way that raises more questions than it answers. Max had a tape of Cockeye playing his theme? A tape from a performance from 1933 or earlier? Did Cockeye cut a record once and Max saved it and committed it to tape once that format became generally available? Or was Max able to remember the tune so well that later he transcribed it for a musician who was able to perform just as Cockeye had all those years ago? And all just to be able to get to Mr. Williams' poise at the proper moment. I call BS on this whole element.

The black limo also raises questions that aren't answered: so, later, Noodles sees it blown up. So what? Do we ever find out who was inside, why they were following Noodles, who they were working for? If not, then it's just there to be mysterious and menacing? Like we need that?

Contrast this with the frisbee scene, where less is explained, but we get plenty of mystery and menace, to say nothing of a bit of Noodles' paranoia.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 02:53:43 PM by dave jenkins » Logged


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« Reply #334 on: May 20, 2012, 03:19:11 PM »

I don't know Jinkies, the music always seemed diegetic to me. You'll notice that it starts and stops when Noodles opens/closes the crypt door.

You're dead right on the plausibility issue though. Too much exposition tends to undermine credibility. In the shorter version the music's a nice style touch, without much reason to think it over. Having a deadeningly literal explanation of it ruins the effect.

As for the limo it's just too obvious a touch for me. Maybe the initial shot of it lurking in the background could have worked. The prolonged bit with it slowly creeping away, in plain daylight, for everyone in New York to see? Come on. Someone like Max who's made a life being discreet isn't going to be that brazenly stupid.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 03:28:43 PM by Groggy » Logged


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« Reply #335 on: May 20, 2012, 05:13:44 PM »

yes, the music is definitely playing in the mausoleum. Cockeye's Tune is rather simple, don't think it would be too hard for someone to make a recording of it.

I agree that the limo tailing Noodles perhaps makes things a bit too literal, and too much into a detective story; this story is more about Noodles exploring his past, than a detective story with cars following you and blowing up. So maybe the limo as shown is too literal. But I do like some explanation for why Noodles is so interested in this Bailey scandal. As it plays in the 229MV, there is really no reason for why Noodles is so interested in that story, and we get the idea that it somehow has to do with his quest, but with no justification for it.

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« Reply #336 on: May 20, 2012, 05:18:46 PM »

How does the sound remix factor into your theory?

A) It's not "my theory." I've yet to find one person who disagrees that Leone's preferred version of GBU is the one shown in the MGM SE minus the Cave Scene.

B) I'd tried avoiding discussing sound cuz I really don't know anything about it at all. My understanding is that you can choose the old mono track, if you want the movie to sound exactly as it did in 1968; and that they changed the gunshots for the SE cuz John Jerk says the old gunshots wouldn't fit with the new remastered sound. I really don't know much about audio so I've never discussed that. (Though from what i understand the DYS dvd absolutely butchers the audio, and that bothers me, knowing that eg. the musical cues are wrong).

« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 05:19:51 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

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« Reply #337 on: May 20, 2012, 05:50:31 PM »

I agree that the limo tailing Noodles perhaps makes things a bit too literal, and too much into a detective story; this story is more about Noodles exploring his past, than a detective story with cars following you and blowing up. So maybe the limo as shown is too literal. But I do like some explanation for why Noodles is so interested in this Bailey scandal. As it plays in the 229MV, there is really no reason for why Noodles is so interested in that story, and we get the idea that it somehow has to do with his quest, but with no justification for it.

I don't know that the limo necessarily syncs up with Bailey. Was there an additonal scene with him tracking down the plate number? It's a cool idea but done far too obviously.

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« Reply #338 on: May 20, 2012, 05:52:50 PM »

I don't know that the limo necessarily syncs up with Bailey. Was there an additonal scene with him tracking down the plate number? It's a cool idea but done far too obviously.

Yes.

There is another added scene where Noodles sees a limo with the same plate number blow up outside the bailey mansion. That is why he is so interested in the newscast of that story -- he knows that the limo that blew up has been tailing him, and that this unfolding Bailey scandal therefore has something to do with why he was brought back

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« Reply #339 on: May 20, 2012, 05:53:33 PM »

Yes.

There is another added scene where Noodles sees a limo with the same plate number blow up outside the bailey mansion. That is why he is so interested in the newscast of that story -- he knows that the limo that blew up has been tailing him, and that this unfolding Bailey scandal therefore has something to do with why he was brought back

Okay, cool. That makes sense.

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« Reply #340 on: May 20, 2012, 06:48:17 PM »

Okay, cool. That makes sense.

Mat Viola has a breakdown of all the added scenes here http://notesofafilmfanatic.com/ the one in question is 2b)

truth is, with this limo element, this becomes more of a detective story. As it is now in the 229MV, sure Noodles has come back to find something, but he is more clueless as to what it is, and it is more internal -- coming to terms with his past. With the limo element added, it becomes something perhaps a bit closer to the classic PI story.
That may well have been Leone's intention -- Leone said that OUATIA is meant as an homage to film noir (though I believe he was talking more about the gangster movies than the PI movies). But it does change the story of Noodles's return. To that extent, I am not so sure that this is the best way to do it. What I mean to say is, I think the story makes a bit more sense now that we know why Noodles has become interested in the Bailey scandal; but I wonder whether this was the best way to do it.

Also, as Mat explains, this changes one of the visual transitional elements: in the 229MV, we cut from Noodles driving the car into the river in 1933 to the newscast of the car being blown up.

But in the new version, here is how it works:

 after Noodles drives the car into the river, the boys get out of the car and play around in the water, until Max becomes frantic because Noodles has pretended to drown -- a parallel to a scene from their childhood. Then, we cut from the car in the river to the car blowing up outside the Bailey mansion, as Noodles watches; then, we cut from that car blowing up in front of the mansion, to the shots of the car on the tv newscast. Makes a bit more sense in the visual transitions.

---------------------

There's no doubt that this new version will take some getting used to. I, for one, am willing to give it a serious chance at being the "definitive version" ... but only once I see it. Maybe I am subconsciously just trying to put a brave face on something that deep down I am afraid will disappoint me. Who knows. All I know is that this may be the last time we ever get to see Leone footage for the first time. (That sentence makes about as much sense as Raquel Welch in Bandolero, but what the hell  Wink)





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« Reply #341 on: May 21, 2012, 02:22:14 AM »

A) It's not "my theory." I've yet to find one person who disagrees that Leone's preferred version of GBU is the one shown in the MGM SE minus the Cave Scene.

B) I'd tried avoiding discussing sound cuz I really don't know anything about it at all. My understanding is that you can choose the old mono track, if you want the movie to sound exactly as it did in 1968; and that they changed the gunshots for the SE cuz John Jerk says the old gunshots wouldn't fit with the new remastered sound. I really don't know much about audio so I've never discussed that. (Though from what i understand the DYS dvd absolutely butchers the audio, and that bothers me, knowing that eg. the musical cues are wrong).

a) Yes that's definitely the Leone version, but as most of us have lived so many years with the 161 min version (without missing anything) it is only natural that people are less tolerant to the Leone version. I prefer the Leone version (175 min), but would be glad if Leone had cut 2 of the "new" scenes. The others I like very much.

b) The problem with the audio is that you cannot chose. The mono track isn't added, and that's not excusable. They shouldn't have the right to alter the audio track, and if they still like to do their 5.1. games, they should have at least also remastered the original mono audio. And it is a big disappointment that the Blu still does not contain the mono track.
Adding new noises to a film (only to make the film compatible to modern audience's likings = to sell more DVDs) is like saying present-day audiences want that the sky looks yellow, let's change the color, or that there should be more blood, let's add some digital blood splashs, or smoking is not pc any more, let's get rid of Eastwood's cigarillos.

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« Reply #342 on: May 21, 2012, 03:05:40 AM »

So, the re-inserted footage is all of inferior quality to the surrounding elements, and we get a noticeable drop in image quality every time we move from the standard cut to the newly-added scenes? That being the case, I would have preferred to have the scenes as extras and not as re-inserted footage.
Are you making that assumption from the material that's on YouTube or has somebody actually confirmed this? I don't know why they would release inferior material on the Internet but that's always a possibility.

And concerning the shortness of the added material, I hope you all have read this: http://www.festival-cannes.fr/en/theDailyArticle/59209.html So basically they added all the cut material they could find.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating something brought up earlier in the thread.

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« Reply #343 on: May 21, 2012, 04:30:04 AM »

Some more clips... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuLFIm2mQQ

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« Reply #344 on: May 21, 2012, 04:43:14 AM »

Are you making that assumption from the material that's on YouTube or has somebody actually confirmed this? I don't know why they would release inferior material on the Internet but that's always a possibility.

And concerning the shortness of the added material, I hope you all have read this: http://www.festival-cannes.fr/en/theDailyArticle/59209.html So basically they added all the cut material they could find.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating something brought up earlier in the thread.

so do you think this means that they put back in all the footage they could find?

That would explain a lot. I couldn't understand why they would only restore 25 minutes, but if that's all they could find, that makes sense. I sure hope that they put back in all the footage they could find



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