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chris
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« Reply #750 on: November 29, 2015, 11:02:57 AM »

He also stated somewhere else that the 2 parts idea was abandoned when 1900 flopped. He said many things at different times, like you said yourself. In the end, I think the "truth" on the topic doesn't even exist since these decisions have been made while the movie was still in the cutting room. They were still creating it. The same cannot be said of the 2 hours version, which is ulterior.

As stated in my previous post Leone said in the Cahiers interview in 1984:

"They (the Ladd company) gave me carte blanche to do four and a half hours with the idea that it would be made in two parts, that is to say two films coming out together.

But four months after the start of editing ("quatre mois après le debut du montage"), they said to me no, it is not possible."

This indicates to me that Leone didn't know that the Ladd Company would find a 270 min version unacceptable until 4 months after the start of editing.

4 months editing a movie sounds like a long time to me and I would be surprised if by that time little progess had been made in achieving Leone's vision for the movie.

Of course prior to Milchan becoming involved, Leone had agreed a deal with Grimaldi who insisted on changes being made, including the duration.  From Simsolo's book;

Leone: "He (Grimaldi) was very eager to produce the film.  But there was the success of Last Tango in Paris by Bertolucci. Then there were big failures like 1900 and Casanova by Fellini.

This last film was a financial disaster.  The coup de grace for Grimaldi.  He hoped that my film would get him out of this impasse.

He changed our plans.  He did not want to have two parts as for 1900.  He panicked too because he had lost the support of major companies.  Everything was going very badly.

I wanted to break our agreement and get back the rights to the book.  He refused.  There were lawsuits.  It was long.  More than three years during which I kept on working on the project.

Other producers were interested.  Finally, thanks to Yves Gasser, I met Arnon Milchan..."
 

« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 12:27:37 PM by chris » Logged
noodles_leone
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« Reply #751 on: November 29, 2015, 01:57:29 PM »


This indicates to me that Leone didn't know that the Ladd Company would find a 270 min version unacceptable until 4 months after the start of editing.

4 months editing a movie sounds like a long time to me and I would be surprised if by that time little progess had been made in achieving Leone' vision for the movie.


I think you'd be surprised. 4 months of editing would be a regular duration for a 120 minutes movie, which is not what we're talking about here. If I had to guess I would say they were right in the middle of it, which means something like a 6 hours rough cut which would include some finished scenes. But I'm just randomly guessing. I don't know a lot about editing a 35mm feature film in the 80's.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 02:02:30 PM by noodles_leone » Logged


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« Reply #752 on: November 29, 2015, 02:28:57 PM »

Weren't the now new scenes not already more or less finished?. Wasn't there a kind of a 270 min version from which the new scenes were taken. Not a completely ready version, but at least one the restorers could work from without completely guessing how the new scenes should be cut?

I own the Blu, but actually I never watched the whole new footage of this already overlong film.

For me the 229 min version will remain the real Leone deal anyway.

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« Reply #753 on: November 29, 2015, 05:51:39 PM »

I think you'd be surprised. 4 months of editing would be a regular duration for a 120 minutes movie, which is not what we're talking about here. If I had to guess I would say they were right in the middle of it, which means something like a 6 hours rough cut which would include some finished scenes. But I'm just randomly guessing. I don't know a lot about editing a 35mm feature film in the 80's.

Frayling actually  says there was 6 to 10 hours of  usable footage, from which ( after having to abandon his plans for a two-part movie) Leone  made his preferred 4.5-hour version, which he later reluctantly cut down to 3:47

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« Reply #754 on: November 30, 2015, 02:55:46 AM »

Frayling actually  says there was 6 to 10 hours of  usable footage, from which ( after having to abandon his plans for a two-part movie) Leone  made his preferred 4.5-hour version, which he later reluctantly cut down to 3:47

These quotes are often mistakable, cause they often refer to rough cuts, which are often twice as long as the final edit.

And the correct runtime is still 229 min or 3:49 hours. That's how the film was released unless censorial cuts were made in some countries.

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« Reply #755 on: November 30, 2015, 04:23:04 AM »

Listen to Stanton. He's always right.
Except when he's talking about French stuff.
Or about The Lady From Shanghai.

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« Reply #756 on: November 30, 2015, 09:11:10 AM »

Leone  made his preferred 4.5-hour version, which he later reluctantly cut down to 3:47
which he later called his "preferred version"

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chris
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« Reply #757 on: November 30, 2015, 12:23:38 PM »

Weren't the new scenes not already more or less finished?. Wasn't there a kind of a 270 min version from which the new scenes were taken...

For me definitely yes although some would disagree.

When news broke regarding the imminent release of the extended version, it was stressed that the exact start and end points of each additional piece were written down and there was no guesswork.  It was also stated that unfortunately the negatives for these scenes no longer exist and the only materials available were discarded strips of working positives.  These had been badly preserved and had not been printed with particular care, as originally they were part of the working copies which circulated between the assistant editors and sound editors as a work reference.

We were promised an additional 26 minutes but in fact new edits have been made to these reducing the duration of the additional scenes to less than 22 minutes.

Some confusion arises regarding the word inediti.  This is the plural of the Italian word inedito and means unpublished or unreleased.  It is sometimes incorrectly translated as unedited.  Leone uses the word montage to describe editing.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

My main issues with the extended 251 min version:

Color tint throughout with no whites

Lack of contrast and poor blacks

Compression artifacts

19 minutes missing from Leone's original version

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

My main issues with the 229 min version:

Some parts are not pin sharp

41 minutes missing from Leone's original version

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Possibly the extended version is very slightly sharper but for me there are too many flaws with the 251 min version to unreservedly recommend it.  However if the color and image quality could be sorted out and the missing 19 minutes inserted, I would undoubtedly opt for the extended version even if the quality of the additional scenes was not as good as the rest of the movie.

For obvious reasons we can only surmise what Leone would have thought of the 251 minute version.


 

« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 12:32:02 PM by chris » Logged
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« Reply #758 on: November 30, 2015, 03:43:06 PM »

Listen to Stanton. He's always right.
Except when he's talking about French stuff.
Or about The Lady From Shanghai.

That's a bit exaggerated, only a bit, and a bit unfair in case of the French part. Actually I don't know much about Quantum Physics and Cranberry Sauce either.

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« Reply #759 on: November 30, 2015, 03:58:41 PM »

Actually I don't know much about Quantum Physics and Cranberry Sauce either.

You lack self confidence, Stanton. I trust you.

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« Reply #760 on: November 30, 2015, 04:24:24 PM »

Self - what?

Whatever, as compensation I know a lot about Quantum of Solace, and solace seems to be more important as physics. With solace we all wait for the perfect versions of most Leones, but the apparent physical reality always betrays us.
Lil' fuckers ...

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« Reply #761 on: November 30, 2015, 05:12:39 PM »

These quotes are often mistakable, cause they often refer to rough cuts, which are often twice as long as the final edit.

And the correct runtime is still 229 min or 3:49 hours. That's how the film was released unless censorial cuts were made in some countries.

Maybe 3:49 not 3:47, my bad

I remember a big debate someone had ( was it you?) with the board member ONCE over whether there was a 220-minute version. Then one day, ONCE just canceled his acct. and all his posts disappeared, too  Grin

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« Reply #762 on: November 30, 2015, 05:23:13 PM »

which he later called his "preferred version"

 perhaps he later decided the 3:49 version was better. Perhaps he was, as  mentioned above, putting a brave face on it. At that point, perhaps there was no hope for the  4 1/2 hour version, so  he was trying to "sell" 3:47 the version is much as possible. Who knows.
What we do know, if Frayling is correct,  is that at the time of the movie's release, Leone wanted the 4 1/2 hour version.  Therefore,I would like to have that version. And I would like to have the 3:49 version as well. Then everyone can watch whatever he/ she prefers.

Was it ever explain why the " new" version is only 251 minutes? Did they not have the other half hour or so even in that bad quality?

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« Reply #763 on: December 01, 2015, 02:09:38 AM »

Maybe 3:49 not 3:47, my bad

I remember a big debate someone had ( was it you?) with the board member ONCE over whether there was a 220-minute version. Then one day, ONCE just canceled his acct. and all his posts disappeared, too  Grin

He did? He deleted all his posts?

Yes, I remember that. But I don't remember if there was a consensus. Actually, apart from that discussion, I can't remember that I ever read anything about a shorter version authorisised by Leone than the theatrical version, and that is the one released on DVDs and Blus, and is the one which runs 229 min.

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« Reply #764 on: December 01, 2015, 02:20:01 AM »

...And I would like to have the 3:49 version as well. Then everyone can watch whatever he/ she prefers.

Was it ever explained why the " new" version is only 251 minutes? Did they not have the other half hour or so even in that bad quality?

Different people like different things and I don't see why two versions of the movie can't co-exist happily.

There was a newspaper report that additional restoration work was being done but nothing seems to have come of it.  Some are adamant that this is why the missing 19 minutes have not been released but in my opinion the situation is still unresolved. There are three main possibilities:

1. The condition of the missing footage is so poor it can't be restored

2. Copyright issues

3. The footage conflicts with scenes in the 229 min version

Considering the large sums of money that have been put into the restoration the results are disappointing and I'm not sure that at present there is much appetite for spending additional sums on further restoration work. However we can but hope and as I've said before I would happily accept the missing footage even if it was in poor condition or even a written note from Andrea Leone Films, WB or Fox describing the content and why it can't be released.

 

« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 02:21:34 AM by chris » Logged
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