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: Tarantino Speaks  ( 3279 )
noodles_leone
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« #15 : June 04, 2019, 11:49:47 PM »

No. Just that the self- conscious attempt at being ' arty'  rarely results in a Masterpiece.

One could argue that almost everything never "results in a Masterpiece", so rarely is already a pretty good track record  :P


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« #16 : June 05, 2019, 12:15:55 AM »

True.

Films which do not try to be something special will even more rarely become something special. Actually most films which are hailed as masterpieces were made with the intent to make something special. The problem is it is pretty tricky to make all the intended ideas work as a whole.

In the case of someone like Kubrick the "thinking" drops out of nearly every film reel he ever shot. It did not always work, but often enough it still does for the Stanley.

And one reason that GBU is so much better than the previous 2 Dollar films is that Leone made that one with a lot more ambitions. Compared to the vulgar simplicity of FoD one could already call GBU a quite pretentious film.

« : June 05, 2019, 12:19:57 AM stanton »

noodles_leone
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« #17 : June 05, 2019, 03:08:33 AM »

True.

Films which do not try to be something special will even more rarely become something special. Actually most films which are hailed as masterpieces were made with the intent to make something special. The problem is it is pretty tricky to make all the intended ideas work as a whole.

In the case of someone like Kubrick the "thinking" drops out of nearly every film reel he ever shot. It did not always work, but often enough it still does for the Stanley.

And one reason that GBU is so much better than the previous 2 Dollar films is that Leone made that one with a lot more ambitions. Compared to the vulgar simplicity of FoD one could already call GBU a quite pretentious film.

Good points.

Let’s rank the Leone films based on their level of pretentiousness!

FOD
FAFDM
COR
GBU
DYS
OUATITW
OUATIA


dave jenkins
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« #18 : June 05, 2019, 05:57:06 AM »

But that's not the case here. I suppose everyone on this board agrees GBU and OUATITW are both masterpieces. One may have been a masterpiece by "accident", one by intention, but it doesn't matter. We're talking about Sergio Leone!



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« #19 : June 05, 2019, 08:15:18 AM »

Films which do not try to be something special will even more rarely become something special
Possibly in the last 50 years, but classic Hollywood (and B movies) generally was very workmanlike and unpretentious and produced a lot of masterpieces. It's also impossible for such calculated movies to have the mystique of something from the 40s or 50s.

No. Just that the self- conscious attempt at being ' arty'  rarely results in a Masterpiece.
Which has been a huge problem this century with Danny Boyle, Sam Mendes type directors. If something like Road to Perdition was made by someone with a better understanding of genre and more humility, for a lack of a better word, maybe that's an actual classic.



This obviously doesn't apply to genius directors like Leone and Kubrick. The greats knew/know how to navigate around any potential issues with making movies that try too hard/are up its own ass/etc.

« : June 05, 2019, 08:21:02 AM T.H. »


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« #20 : June 05, 2019, 12:39:44 PM »

Possibly in the last 50 years, but classic Hollywood (and B movies) generally was very workmanlike and unpretentious and produced a lot of masterpieces. It's also impossible for such calculated movies to have the mystique of something from the 40s or 50s.
Which has been a huge problem this century with Danny Boyle, Sam Mendes type directors. If something like Road to Perdition was made by someone with a better understanding of genre and more humility, for a lack of a better word, maybe that's an actual classic.



This obviously doesn't apply to genius directors like Leone and Kubrick. The greats knew/know how to navigate around any potential issues with making movies that try too hard/are up its own ass/etc.


PERDITION is a classic imho#

In Frayling a first book he devoted an entire chapter to OITW but lumped GBU in with the first two , chapter wise.
It took him awhile to recognize GBU as a Masterpiece , also!

« : June 05, 2019, 12:48:46 PM uncknown »

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My article on the restoration of the The Big Gundown
http://thekinskifiles.blogspot.com/2009/01/cinemaretro-13-big-gundown.html
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« #21 : June 05, 2019, 12:52:27 PM »

No. Just that the self- conscious attempt at being ' arty'  rarely results in a Masterpiece.

Examples: the scene if Jill in her room. Its arty , not in a good way. But, that is the only case I can think of.


"Other Morton's will come along  and they'll kill it off"

My article on the restoration of the The Big Gundown
http://thekinskifiles.blogspot.com/2009/01/cinemaretro-13-big-gundown.html
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« #22 : June 05, 2019, 12:56:08 PM »

But that's not the case here. I suppose everyone on this board agrees GBU and OUATITW are both masterpieces. One may have been a masterpiece by "accident", one by intention, but it doesn't matter. We're talking about Sergio Leone!






Right. But as I mentioned above, Frayling et. Al. Didn't recognize GBU till long after OITW was enshrined.


Bruce Marshall I'm

« : June 05, 2019, 12:58:05 PM uncknown »

"Other Morton's will come along  and they'll kill it off"

My article on the restoration of the The Big Gundown
http://thekinskifiles.blogspot.com/2009/01/cinemaretro-13-big-gundown.html
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« #23 : June 05, 2019, 02:17:45 PM »

But that's their problem, not Sergio's (or ours).



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« #24 : June 05, 2019, 09:34:24 PM »

You guys are equating making a movie on a more “serious” (as opposed to light) subject with trying to be a masterpiece


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« #25 : June 06, 2019, 12:40:03 AM »

You guys are equating making a movie on a more “serious” (as opposed to light) subject with trying to be a masterpiece

I didn't. I wrote "ambitious".


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« #26 : June 06, 2019, 03:35:09 AM »

I didn't. I wrote "ambitious".

You did. And I'm convinced "pretentious" is a perfect synonym for "ambitious" in art: both words describe the exact same reality, but people use one of them when they like the movie/painting/ballet/whatever and the other when they don't.

Also, although GBU has all these scenes about war being such a terrible thing and stuff... I always though FAFDM was darker, grittier and more violent. Maybe it gets a less serious topic, but GBU is definitely the lighter film to me. Which probably plays a big role in anti-comedy Drink liking FAFDM more :)

« : June 06, 2019, 03:37:47 AM noodles_leone »

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« #27 : June 06, 2019, 04:55:36 AM »

You did. And I'm convinced "pretentious" is a perfect synonym for "ambitious" in art: both words describe the exact same reality, but people use one of them when they like the movie/painting/ballet/whatever and the other when they don't.



Not a synonym.
But you are right, ambitious films often feel pretentious if they don't work for one.

Hmm, for me FaFDM is the lighter film compared to GBU.


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« #28 : June 06, 2019, 10:21:42 AM »

Hmm, for me FaFDM is the lighter film compared to GBU.
To my mind, Leone's great theme is male heterosexual friendship. By the time he gets to DYS and OUATITA that theme is front and center, but earlier in his career his approach was more circumspect. FaFDM obviously presents the developing friendship between Mortimer and Manco, but it seems rather superficial. This is largely, I think, because the two characters are rather sketchily drawn. Mortimer has a backstory, but little of his personality is engaging, and Manco remains pretty much a cipher. GBU is a big advance over the previous film in this regard. We are with Blondie and Tuco long enough--and they go through so much together--that we develop real affection for the characters separately and together. Tarantino, in his recent comments on the film, puts his finger on a unique feature of the film: it is a buddy picture that deploys many of the tropes of buddy pictures without in fact actually being a buddy picture. At the end of the film it's more than likely that Tuco will chase Blondie down and kill him (see notes for GBU 2: Tuco's Revenge). But Leone has, by the time of GBU, developed his approach to character to such an extent that the film has real gravity. It is an epic, not only in scope, but in depth. The characters really live. I never go back to FaFDM hoping to spend time with Mortimer and Manco: they are flat characters who exist just to further the plot. But I'll often spin scenes from GBU--not even the whole movie--just to be able to spend time with a couple of old friends.



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noodles_leone
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« #29 : June 06, 2019, 10:35:55 AM »

That's the first interesting Leone related comment I've read on this board in years!

 It had to come from Hippie Jenkins  O0


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