30 Westerns in Once

[Groggy]

-- there is scene in Wayne's hotel room where Pedro Gonzalez Gonzalez (the hotel owner) is showing John Wayne the red underwear Gonzalez Gonzalez (I love that last name!) bought for his wife, and Angie Dickinson walks in on them, and then there is a running gag where she makes fun of Wayne, as if those were his. Well, reminds me of another scene in a hotel involving someone making fun  of another re: their underwear-- in FAFDM -- "Senor Martinez: I don't wear 'em!"  (btw, can the historians here answer this question: Were those women's knee-level shorts their underwear, or did they wear anything under that?)

There's also a pretty close scene in The Tin Star, though Fonda reacts differently than Eastwood. But Rio Bravo seems like a possible touch point too.

[drinkanddestroy]

There's also a pretty close scene in The Tin Star, though Fonda reacts differently than Eastwood. But Rio Bravo seems like a possible touch point too.

I watched The Tin Star very recently and don't remember any such scene. Remind me, please

[cigar joe]

Don't remember if this film was ever posted before....I know there was a similar scene in Red River prior but here is a Noir ref:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krNLQw8sI34&feature=related

[Groggy]

3:10 to Yuma is playing on TCM. Could be a coincidence but the tableau shot of Wade's gang assembled under the hotel window is identical to when Frank's gang arrives at Morton's train. Hard to tell about homage with specific shots but I thought it worth mentioning in light of Jinkies' comments further up the thread.

[marmota-b]

(btw, can the historians here answer this question: Were those women's knee-level shorts their underwear, or did they wear anything under that?)

Sorry for the very late reaction: They were. The proper term is drawers. And apparently, they only started to be used during the 19th century.
http://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/ladies-underdrawers-in-regency-times/
Before that, women would have just worn a tighter, shorter underpetticoat. Although some recent finds in Austria suggest that underwear in the (late) Middle Ages may have been more "modern" than we used to think... but that's just a very off topic aside.

[Novecento]

Interesting interview with Bertolucci here: http://www.littlewhitelies.co.uk/features/interviews/bernardo-bertolucci-23688

Includes the following about OUATITW:

You don't seem like one of those directors. Your cinema feels very distinctive.

I see a shot in a movie and it will come back to me. When I want to do a quotation in brackets, it's clear. But otherwise, my references are secret. I wrote the treatment for Once Upon A Time In The West with Dario Argento. And I put many homages to classic westerns in there. It was the '60s so the homage, the quotation was a very new thing. I thought it would be fantastic if Sergio Leone makes these quotations without knowing what they are from.

Or you tricked him.

Yes, I suppose I did! When the movie was completed, I told him. And he said that he knew them all! That man... He was so in love with movies and particularly westerns. He believes so much in that world that he made us believe in it too.

[cigar joe]

thanks

[drinkanddestroy]

I have seen that claim by Bernardo Bertolucci (BB) many times (he says it on the OUATITW dvd, don't remember if it's in a bonus feature or on the commentary), and Frayling has quoted him. Personally, I think it's a dubious claim. I wasn't there at the time, but, I mean, Leone had probably seen all the Westerns BB had seen. BB wrote the treatment, not the screenplay.
 True, I recall that Frayling says that the treatment was 300 pages long (which I imagine is enormous for a treatment, therefore allowing for far more references than a typical treatment would allow); and we don't know how much of the treatment remained in the final screenplay by Donati and Leone. However, so many of the references are visual. And how could Bertolucci stick such details into a treatment about a movie that is a homage to the AW without Leone realizing that the detail is meant as a reference?
eg. if the treatment mentioned that the house had a stump in the front yard, or that Timmy McBain mimes shooting the shotgun (both references to Shane), wouldn't Leone have realized this is supposed t be a reference to an AW -- especially considering that, as we said, this movie is all about a homage to the AW! I can't imagine that a treatment would contain that level of detail (which I assume is usually not present in a treatment), and they remained in the final script, without Leone realizing they were meant to be a reference. of course it's quite possible that BB may have snuck a few in, but the way he'd have us believe, that he snuck in a significant amount, sounds to me to be quite implausible. (Of course, the only way to find out for sure is if a copy of the treatment could be obtained [IF ONLY...]). Till then, I'll say BB is probably full of shit.

I remember that the author of the Watchdog article about the various versions of OUATITW (that Jordan Krug posted on a sticky thread on the OUATITW board -- it's the last page of the article) speculated that perhaps BB is making this claim because he is bitter over the fact that after he wrote the treatment (with Argento, of course,) Leone then went to Donati and asked him to write the screenplay (along with Leone), rather than asking BB himself to develop his treatment into a screenplay. It's an interesting theory, but, whatever the truth is behind BB's reasoning, I say: BB, you have made great contributions to cinema, and forgive me if I'm wrong, but you are full of shit.

As I said, the best (and perhaps only) way to know for sure is to obtain a copy of that treatment (and, if possible, the screenplay as well), and compare. Maybe BB owns a copy of the treatment, and that could prove his point. But if that's not in existence, at the very least, I would love it if someone would actually ask BB if he can name some of the references he supposedly snuck in. I'd like to hear what his answer would be to that question.

And if anyone here has contact with Frayling, that would be a great question to ask him, if he owns a copy of the treatment or knows someone who does.

[dave jenkins]

I'll say BB is probably full of shit.

No "probably" about it pard. He's so full of it his eyes are brown.

[drinkanddestroy]

When Cheyenne swings the light in the trading post and it casts a swinging shadow of Harmonica – it's been mentioned before that http://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums/index.php?topic=4281.msg154729#msg154729 it's a similar moment to one in Firecreek.

But what I don't recall being mentioned before is the possibility that the swinging lamp and shadow is a reference to the scene in Psycho in which Vera Miles discovers Mrs. Bates http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an4HXLELr64
As we know from the belt/suspenders line from Ace in the Hole, some of the quotations in OUATITW may have been to non-Westerns. (Frayling does not mention the swinging lamp reference in his book Once Upon a Time in Italy, which has a big list of all the quotations in OUATITW.)

[cigar joe]

Its also at the end of Red River & Noir Desperate.

[Cusser]

drinkanddestroy - PM sent

[cigar joe]

I pasted our list on IMDb Westerns Board here is a new suggestion

Samoan Bob » 12 hours ago (Tue Nov 25 2014 22:26:18)

Good list. I've always thought that Cheyenne's death scene might be slightly inspired by Joel McCrea's in Ride the High Country. They both tell their friends to leave because they don't want their friends to watch them die. Might be a common trope but no other examples come to mind at the moment.

[dave jenkins]

I'd buy that for a dollar. 

[stanton]

Never thought of that, but this is at least a possible and not too far fetched inspiration, unlike many if not most of the others.