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Author Topic: 2 dusters, not 3....  (Read 15057 times)
grandpa_chum
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« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2004, 11:32:19 AM »

yeah... i see his point... probably because i was convinced it was a continuity error for a year or so... i always thought they were still in sweetwater doing the "love scene" but once i realized that wasn't the case it all made sense.

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Harmonica: So, you're not a businessman after all.
Frank: Just a man.
Harmonica: An ancient race...
dave jenkins
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« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2004, 10:48:46 PM »

Grandpa_chum i could not be in greater agreement with you, this film, as far as i can see, is flawless, the only flaws that people can highlight are in the old yankee versions when they cut out 20 minutes which made the story make no sense. However davejenkins has a point, ive never worked out why that love scene comes later than the 'station' thing.

The point is that leone's lyrical sweep means that little details like that dont matter...as a viewer you're completely convinced by Leone's whole message.

Okay, I agree with everybody, especially the bit about the lyrical sweep of things. None of this really matters and it only starts to occupy your thinking after you've seen the movie about 20 times. First-time viewers never have any trouble with these issues so Leone did his job just fine.

But I have to say, regarding the Sweetwater/Navajo Cliffs/Jill-and-Frank-in-bed sequence that, although it works as is, it could have been sequenced in a different and (to me) slightly more pleasing way. My biggest problem is that Frank takes too long to get Jill into the sack. I've another concern as well: as the film exists now, we go from Jill-and-Frank-in-bed to the auction, and the cut is slightly confusing. I think Alex Cox mentions this in his commentary. The auction scene begins with a shot of Harmonica stepping into frame in profile and then peering through some curtains (or something). Coming as it does right after the bed scene, there is a split second when the viewer might think that H is spying on Frank and Jill. Granted, the viewer immediately discards that notion as soon as he sees that the scene has changed, but that moment of disorientation where the viewer doesn't know where he is seems unnecessary. I say unnecessary because by reordering the preceding scenes it can be eliminated.

Here's my preferred sequencing: Frank-and-Jill at Sweetwater/Harmonica and Cheyenne at Sweetwater/Frank-and-Jill in bed/Navajo Cliffs/the auction. By cutting away from Navajo Cliffs to the auction the audience immediately knows the scene has changed, and waits for more information before jumping to conclusions. There is no longer any temptation to be misled into thinking Harmonica is in the same scene with Frank and Jill (to me this makes for superior montage).

Other advantages result from this sequencing, the chief being that Frank gets Jill into bed sooner. Also it may make more sense that Frank insults Morton after bedding Jill (perhaps in part because he has both her and her land at that point and feels particularly powerful). Finally, Frank's concession that Morton can pay for Sweetwater makes a very good lead into the auction scene which, in this altered sequencing, immediately follows.

As far as I can see, this alternate sequencing does not create any problems and solves the issues I've mentioned above. Others may feel all this is unnecessary and that the film plays fine as is. To each his own.

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grandpa_chum
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« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2004, 01:06:21 AM »

WOW.... first off... if you've ever watched a leone movie you know the Harmonica in the window confusion scene is Leone's way of having a little fun and is done on purpose... secondly... the auction scene doesn't work unless it's directly after the bed scene... we need to know why Jill is just giving in and selling the ranch... if jill and frank are in bed sooner it takes away that whole mood of frank forcing her into it...

as for the scene with frank and morton coming after the jill and frank scene... it just wouldn't work for me... the bed scene just doesn't pan out the way it does without the morton wormy apple scene coming before it... First off you'd have a real continuity problem, because frank and jill would instantly go from the sweetwater ranch to a bed in the navajo cliffs without any sort of transition... Secondly because the only reason Frank talks to jill the way he does is because he finally feels superior to Morton and more powerful, which was setup in the wormy apple scene... i just don't think it has the same effect as a wrap up scene instead of a set up scene.

I know i must sound like a "don't EVER question Leone... he is a god" and i have been known by my friends to sound that way... but this is just one sequence of scenes i just can't see a problem with.

And everything Cox says on the dvd is with the understanding that he thinks they are in bed in sweetwater not the navajo cliffs.

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Harmonica: An ancient race...
conradv
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2004, 03:14:57 PM »

*drools*


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dave jenkins
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« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2004, 12:18:37 AM »


I know i must sound like a "don't EVER question Leone... he is a god" and i have been known by my friends to sound that way...

Gramps, this brings up an interesting question I've been meaning to ask you: What do you think about the alternate versions of OUATITW? And what about the Italian version, which has some of the same shots but of either longer or shorter duration, and even shots that don't appear in the U.S. version? Is it true that the restored Italian version is 16 minutes longer than the current U.S. one? If so, wouldn't that make the Italian version the "better" version (even more of "the greatest film ever made")? If not, why not? Enquiring minds want to know.....

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« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2004, 06:56:37 AM »

 I don't understand why Frank should jump on Jill immediately in Sweet Water. I don't understand  why he should take her immediately in bed in Navaro cliff immediately after Sweet Water either.
Frank is not a teenager who react to his immediate impulse. His experience in what I what I would call "bad buisness" may have learned him that in order to reach your goal it's sometime better to put things in stand by. Frank wanted to marry Jill, do you think that "rapping" her at Sweet Water would be the best way to persuade her?
The scene with Morton before is usefull as it gives the idea of the location of the scene, without it we could have thought that the bed scene took place at Sweet Water. And as said Gran Pa the cut need a certain "variety" to perform. If you see Frank and Jill in Sweet Water and then immeditely after in Navajo cliff I don't know but it tends to be too demonstrative.
 Frank must had his reasons to make her waiting, remember he is sixity, so is not pressed by his hormones and the charcateristic impatience of the young age. In Navajo, Jill is in his power, at his home, not at Sweet water.
 I don't say that this montage was perfect anyway, it could have been better that's true and I never said that anything Leone did was perfect.
 I don't really visualize what scene you are reffering to with H spying Jill before the auction. I just remember a scene when H was "spying" Jill just before she met the "fat man" ( I don't remember his name) of the laundry. Jill and H were in the same shot there.

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dave jenkins
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« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2004, 07:25:29 PM »

... the auction scene doesn't work unless it's directly after the bed scene... we need to know why Jill is just giving in and selling the ranch... if jill and frank are in bed sooner it takes away that whole mood of frank forcing her into it...

as for the scene with frank and morton coming after the jill and frank scene... it just wouldn't work for me... the bed scene just doesn't pan out the way it does without the morton wormy apple scene coming before it... First off you'd have a real continuity problem, because frank and jill would instantly go from the sweetwater ranch to a bed in the navajo cliffs without any sort of transition... Secondly because the only reason Frank talks to jill the way he does is because he finally feels superior to Morton and more powerful, which was setup in the wormy apple scene...

The sequencing as I've imagined it would work like this:
Jill and Frank are at Sweetwater/CUT TO: Harmonica and Cheyenne at Sweetwater (time has passed)/CUT TO: Frank and Jill in bed in a cave in the Navajo Cliffs. Frank talks about not wanting to kill Jill; there must be another way to get control of her land. What about marriage? No, Frank decides that won't work. A simpler way has to be found (there's a beat while the audience ponders what Frank might come up with)/CUT TO: CU of Morton, EXT Navajo Cliffs: "I know that woman is here.....I want to make a deal." The humiliation of Morton follows. Frank's last line, in a wide shot: "Oh, Morton, about the land. You can pay for it if you want to....." Morton has supplied Frank with the solution he was looking for./CUT TO: Auction Scene where Jill (under duress) is selling out.

The way the film runs now works, but I think this alternate sequencing works too. Sure, Frank could act the way he does with Jill because he's had his interview with Morton; he could also act the way he does with Morton because he's had his "interview" with Jill. The exercise of power enhances sex, but the opposite is also true (at least, that's what they tell me.....)

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« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2004, 07:36:33 PM »

Frank must had his reasons to make her waiting, remember he is sixity, so is not pressed by his hormones and the charcateristic impatience of the young age.

Henry Fonda may have been 60 when he made the movie, but Frank is a considerably younger man. Mid-40s, I'd guess, just old enough to start developing prostrate problems, but still young enough to get headaches from going without.....

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« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2004, 08:15:01 PM »

I have absolutely no knowledge of any other versions of west because the restored dvd version released in the US is the only one i've seen... and a restored film version i saw at a theatre in chicago... and they were both the same as far as i know...

and i never said you're sequence wouldn't work... it sounds like it would... but if it ain't broke don't fix it... i could go through a million changes to this movie that would technically work... but who knows how it would effect the overall picture... we just don't know.

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Frank: Just a man.
Harmonica: An ancient race...
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« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2004, 08:31:09 AM »

And what about the Italian version, which has some of the same shots but of either longer or shorter duration, and even shots that don''t appear in the U.S. version? Is it true that the restored Italian version is 16 minutes longer than the current U.S. one? If so, wouldn''t that make the Italian version the "better" version (even more of "the greatest film ever made")? If not, why not?

Well yes,you''re right,the Italian DVD version is indeed longer.However,the quality of the Italian DVD is poorer than the quality of other DVD''s,so quality-wise it is not a better version.

But I would have wanted to see the extra minutes in the non-Italian OUATITW DVD''s too.It''s sad they excluded them from the DVD.The GBU DVD has the extra scenes,why can''t the OUATITW DVD have them?

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« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2004, 08:36:42 AM »

But Harmonica says exactly, "In the dusters there were three men. In the men there were three holes."

Well,to be precise,Harmonica says exactly "Inside the dusters there were three men.Inside the men there were three bullets."

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« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2004, 08:40:32 AM »

I''ve never noticed this illogicality in the movie,but I understood it right away from the title of this thread,before even reading it.

And yes,you''re right!Harmonica should have said:"I saw two of these dusters and Woody Strode a short time ago,they were waiting for a train."  Cheesy

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