Sergio Leone Web Board
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
November 18, 2017, 07:12:04 AM
Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
News:


+  Sergio Leone Web Board
|-+  General Information
| |-+  General Discussion (Moderators: cigar joe, moviesceleton, Dust Devil)
| | |-+  LEONE UNCULTURED?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: LEONE UNCULTURED?  (Read 11330 times)
TBPJMR
Bandido
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 63



View Profile
« on: February 13, 2003, 12:22:24 PM »

From the great biography of C. Frayling one can get the conviction  that, at least, some people who knew Leone very well thinks or thought that he was poorly cultured. Screenplayer Vincenzoni is among them, but I seem to recall that he was not the only one.
This was one of the surprises of the biography to me because none of the material of any kind I read about Leone mentioned that. But I have two interviews of the late 1988 and recently I got the preface to the italian edition of "The Hoods (in Italy "Mano armata", Longanesi 1983) and they are enough sophisticated not to ascribe them to an uncultured man. I know that professional writers can have blunt, correct or even create the prose, but the concepts are undoubtedly his... so I begin to think that, as many others, Vincenzoni is more unfair that true.
What do you think?

Logged

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez
nighteagle
Chicken Thief
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


draw your gun, if you can...


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2003, 02:24:47 AM »

this is a good one..!
I am Italian, and I think you hit a sore point. In Kiralīs interview to Vincenzoni he said one VEEEERY important thing, that can be fully understood only by an Italian:
Vincenzoni said " I am Venetian and Leone is from Rome".
Vinc. wants to express his low esteem he has for people
of the italian capital. This is an attitude found very frequently
in northern Italy and is expressed politically in the fact that
we have a political party, the NorthernLeague, which wants
separation of the North from the  rest of Italy. Vinc. has something personal against Leone, we donīt  know the
full truth. Leone might not have been a star in general culture, but he HAS CREATED CULTURE in the ART of MAKING CINEMA, and that is quite a feat!!! Period.
Do you know that PAVAROTTI, the greatest tenor cannot
read notes? Is he an uncultured person ? No, his cultural
achievement is TO BE A GREAT TENOR.
Nighteagle

Logged
shorty larsen
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 542


Agachate tonto


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2003, 12:40:44 PM »

What is the meaning of "uncultured"? What is the meaning of culture? Nonsense.

In OUTW and OUTA Leone describes the history of the United States better than plenty of historians.

For example Leone understood perfectly the importance of railway in United States history (OUTW), long before the nobel award prizes economists. His metaphores about the growing of the united states, born between greed (the railway, Van der Bilt) and gangsters who became senators, doublecroussing their best friends in the way, prove long enough his intelligence.

Intelligence I said. And sensibility. Who can deny Leone's film poetry and sensibility?

Leave the culture to the pseudo-intelectual trash....

Logged

Each one for himself, and God against all.
Jupa
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 262


Viva Leone!


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2003, 09:26:05 AM »

this is a good one..!
I am Italian, and I think you hit a sore point. In Kiralīs interview to Vincenzoni he said one VEEEERY important thing, that can be fully understood only by an Italian:
" I am Venetian and Leone is from Rome".
Vinc. wants to express his low esteem he has for people
of the italian capital. This is an attitude found very frequently in northern Italy and is expressed politically in the fact that we have a political party, the NorthernLeague, which wants separation of the North from the  rest of Italy. Vinc. has something personal against Leone, we donīt  know the full truth.

Wow,that was interesting!Grazie che ce lo hai spiegato! (I hope that was right  Cool)

Logged
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12667


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2003, 11:38:36 AM »

This rivalry is true, it plays out in a joking and an almost snobbish attitude, high class/low class, type of thing, that has almost nothing to do with class but from which part of Italia you are from. I had a dear Aunt from a peasant background who referred to southern Italians as begin "de la bas" (from the bottom).  That reminds me of a story from my childhood, my father once with a mischevious grin sent me into an Italian bakery to ask for "High Italian Bread."

« Last Edit: February 15, 2003, 11:39:03 AM by cigar joe » Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
noodles_leone
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5089


Lonesome Billy


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2003, 03:59:36 AM »

leone wasn't uncultured: he knew very well the american movies of the 40's and 50's. This is a kind of cultur.

Logged


New music video: ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE https://youtu.be/p968oyMo5B0
www.ThibautOskian.com
caius
Bandido
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 118


"bravo!"


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2003, 06:38:04 AM »

What is the meaning of "uncultured"? What is the meaning of culture? Nonsense.

In OUTW and OUTA Leone describes the history of the United States better than plenty of historians.

I have the upmost respect for leone and do not know much about his cultural capacities.  But the fact that he can describe the history of the united states does not make him cultured or uncultured.  Coming from an Italian point of view (alhough i am not Italian, i do have family there and their sense of culture is one which holds culture in high esteem, as nighteagle may back up,) maybe he was talking about passions for art, opera, music, great literature and so on.  Leone was a great director but that does not make him cultured.  Neither does his exstensive knowledge of 40's and 50's westerns.  A vast knowledge in a small field cannot culture somebody, they need a broader learning of many of the fine arts, sciences, and philosophies.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2003, 06:39:26 AM by caius » Logged

I hate signatures, so naf, but i had to put this up for a week or so to show my respect

r.i.p. joe strummer.  great man, great band
shorty larsen
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 542


Agachate tonto


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2003, 12:48:27 PM »

Are you really sure that fine arts, sciences, and philosophies are "culture". Can you really define culture?

Do you know somebody who can speak about art, science and philosophie with the same authority?

Following this point of view, we are all uncultured.

Leone at least, as Nighteagle tells us, DID created culture in the art of cinema, while we are just here sitting and speaking about him.

Leone made movies. He never declared himself an artist, a scientific or a philosopher, and he was one of the best when he made movies. That's all.

Let's put it this way: if to be "cultured" is to have a "broader learning of many of the fine arts, sciences and philosophies", Leone was uncultured, so am I, so is every one here. So what? We all love Leone's movies in this forum, they're not only excelent in the esthetic way, but also very sensitive and beautiful.

If, in order to make a good movie, you have to be "uncultured" (not to have a broader learning of many of the fine arts, sciences and philosophies), hurra for that!!!!

Hurra for the unculture!!!!!

Logged

Each one for himself, and God against all.
TBPJMR
Bandido
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 63



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2003, 04:13:01 AM »

As I said in my first post of this topic, the supposed uncultureness of Leone was a kind of discovery to me; if I may say something about the debate on what's the meaning of culture etc., my opinion is that the term is generally referred to the knowledge of the arts and sciences. And, to me, the point is that Leone was NOT so uncultured in literature and painting and music at least, as people like Vincenzoni affirm. And, as for his cinematographic culture, that was encyclopaedic.

So I believe that to make the movies he made, which I consider of the highest level in movie history, he could not be one-way-cultured (in cinema) and a sort of illiterate for the rest.

Bye and bye

Logged

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez
shorty larsen
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 542


Agachate tonto


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2003, 01:58:33 PM »

Anyway, it seems that Leone was "ashamed" of his lack of "culture".

I read somewhere that he used to go to tv interviews with Celine's book "Voyage au bout de la nuit" in his pocket so everyone could see that he was reading that.

Is this true or not....

Leone did not paint, and he wasn't in a science research project. He made movies. That's all.....

Logged

Each one for himself, and God against all.
TBPJMR
Bandido
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 63



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2003, 12:37:09 AM »

Leone did not paint, and he wasn't in a science research project. He made movies. That's all.....
I know many people who does not paint, and many more who's never been in a science research project, that I can't define uncultured in these fields.
I never made a movie, but I have some (little) knowledge about cinema...  Wink

As for the funny episode of the book he showed in the interviews you know what Vincenzoni said to Kiral: that Leone never read the book and he knew about it from Vincenzoni... This is one of the screenplayer's revelations I can't easily believe.

I'm not trying to say a definitive word on the matter, I just have an opinion that cannot agree with what Vincenzoni and some other people say about Sergio.

Bye and bye


Logged

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez
El
Road Apple
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2003, 10:53:11 AM »

Really interesting topic!  I'm doing some work on Leone at the moment and was wondering...
Would you say that Leone is making a comment about the differences between the North and South of Italy in his films?  (Consciously or otherwise)

Logged
nighteagle
Chicken Thief
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


draw your gun, if you can...


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2003, 07:45:01 AM »

Dear El
he is not. Leone is from Rome, the center of Italy, and Romans look at North,South, East and West with a nonchalant, ironic and detatched attitude, live and let live...

One more remark to the "culture" problem:
the french philosopher Larochefocaoult said: the difference between a man who knows a lot of facts and a wise man is the same as between an index and a book.
In other words: a man of culture is the one who asks such a
"cultural" questions that the corresponding answer makes a DIFFERENCE. Or, conversely, when asked some question, a
"culturally intelligent" person answers in a way, that his answer makes a DIFFERENCE. Now to Leone, in the early sixties  the art of cinema was stalling, lack of creativity, lack of  novel camera angles, boring music etc. especially in the western movies. Leone brought a cultural answer to the question "WHAT NOW???" in a way that alll the
formal elements of a movie (rythm, music, camera angles,
close-ups.....etc.etc) became completely redefined, so his answer made a DIFFERENCE. This defines him as a person of culture.

Logged
shorty larsen
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 542


Agachate tonto


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2003, 01:30:32 PM »

I think the problem of "culture"  has no limits.

The main problem, to me is the very definition of "culture". What is culture? Is it a "broader learning of many of the fine arts, sciences, and philosophies". It's not enough. The concept of culture can't be defined by no one.

In the XIX century there was an unfinishable discussion between the french and the german intellectual class, the french told to the german "we are the civilization, you are the barbary". The german answered "yes, you are the civilization, but we are the CULTURE. You, frenchmen, have politeness and "good manners", wh have MORAL. They meant by that (and if you know the french you know what I' talking about) that the refined art, the progress of the science and philosophies are not CULTURE, but CIVILIZATION. Culture is something even more deep, related to a moral system and an esthetic vision of life.

Leone had this esthetic vision of life. You can bet your a.. that he had it. He belonged to what german philosophers considered CULTURE. The rest is CIVILIZATION. And german philosophers of the XIXth century knew a little about this.

Logged

Each one for himself, and God against all.
nighteagle
Chicken Thief
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


draw your gun, if you can...


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2003, 01:48:20 PM »


good  comment, amigo!
this is another valid perspective of the problem, which fits perfectly the Leonian contribution to culture. He masterly expresses his vision of esthetics, which is why we all like his movies.

Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Visit FISTFUL-OF-LEONE.COM

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.042 seconds with 20 queries.