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| | |-+  Missing the Leone "touch", fatal flaws in Clints American westerns
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Author Topic: Missing the Leone "touch", fatal flaws in Clints American westerns  (Read 28491 times)
titoli
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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2006, 06:31:26 PM »

CJ, frankly I do not get your point. I mean, the analysis you make of the Eastwood's movies are faultless. But even assuming the movies had not had all those low budgets, miscasts and all, do you really think they would have made a Leone? The "touch" Leone had (call it talent, genius, whatever) is God sent: you have it or not. Eastwood as a director never had it, if not, maybe, in single scenes (but that you can find also in other director's movies). I haven't seen his last movies (M.River and MDB) but from what I hear they are impeccable run-of the mill Hollywood movies. What I expected from Eastwood after he split with Leone was competent, solid movies. Most of the times, expecially in the '70's, he delivered. But, as much as I like some of the american works I never thought he or Siegel could even distantly approach the Leone's results. Which - this I would like to make clear - are unique. And, I'm afraid, bound to remain so.

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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2006, 04:49:35 AM »

I'm just stating what I think or how I think Leone would have handeled the works if he had directed the films, or maybe even better put would be how they could have been more "Italianized".  Cool


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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2006, 05:45:34 AM »

I think the flaws you're talking about are more a consequence of incompetence than lack of italianity. Also I wonder whether not having an antagonist of respect before Hackman (but I wouldn't put aside Duvall in Joe Kidd, which apparently I'm the only one to like; and also the pistoleros gang in Pale Rider, ditto) may be due to the fact that Eastwood didn't want to risk being put aside like he may have thought (wrongly) it happened with Volonté and Wallach. And anyway his three best non westerns (Coogan's, DH and Magnum F) prove that you don't need necessarily an actor like those three above to work and effective counterpoint to him.

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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2006, 06:46:23 AM »

Quote
I think the flaws you're talking about are more a consequence of incompetence than lack of italianity. Also I wonder whether not having an antagonist of respect before Hackman (but I wouldn't put aside Duvall in Joe Kidd, which apparently I'm the only one to like; and also the pistoleros gang in Pale Rider, ditto) may be due to the fact that Eastwood didn't want to risk being put aside like he may have thought (wrongly) it happened with Volonté and Wallach. And anyway his three best non westerns (Coogan's, DH and Magnum F) prove that you don't need necessarily an actor like those three above to work and effective counterpoint to him.


Could be for sure, I think the fun thing we could do with analysing these Westerns is playing the "what If game"
and seeing them as they might have been.

Duval was good but he's more like Morton rather than a Frank, and no one of his gang rises to that stature.

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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2006, 08:50:42 AM »

 The player who did Scorpio was not a particularly good actor (certainly not in the same class as Duvall) neither he had a successive notable career (as far as I can tell). Still he's effective. He gives that streak of madness and meanness to the character that makes him redoutable.  So in the end it is a problem of screenplay and of lack of vision on the director's side. I think that John Vernon or Geoffrey Lewis could be effective antagonists (especially Lewis, who manages always to convey a streak of unpredactibility to his meanest characters thanks to the mobility of his eyes)  But if you don't know how to let it come to the fore the actor can do little. I don't think that Volonté or Van Cleef are in themselves redoutable (surely not the first). But between the bad LVC of High Noon (who is just a mean profile) and Sentenza there's all the ocean dividing Hollywood from Spain, Hollywood hackness and improvising genius.

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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2006, 12:51:02 PM »

Scorpio was Andy Robinson, I believe, (He was more of a stage actor) I saw him also in "Charlie Varick, The Last of the Independents" with Walter Mathow, he was good in that also.

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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2006, 02:00:45 PM »

cigar Joe
Hits the nail on the head here, the westerns of Eastwood fail to deliver time and time again.
by the time Unforgiven was released I had come to detatch myself from Leone/Eastwood magic and saw it just as another Eastwood western, which without doubt is his best and flogs the skin off most other Hollywood westerns.
The magic that Leone/Eastwood and Morricone brought together not forgetting LVC and Eli and the rest of the casts and crews could never be reproduced it was a one off thing.
Eastwood is maybe the only person who could have got near to it if he had gathered all of the old team minus Leone and used some real big hitting actors Hackman, Fonda,Malden,Robert Shaw,Coburn,Bronson plus others that could come to mind.
But we must remember that Eastwood was out to foster himself and his movies which is no bad thing as we got some great ones from him.
I say this, Leone and his movies are becoming very vogue for serious movie nuts and makers and I do see in the future Westerns with the right feel, pace and music, its just a matter of time, even at first if its an attempt at a remake just to get the gritty western ball moving.
Scream and howl as much as you like, but if a remake of say GBU is what it takes to kick the studios into action then I will not have to much of a problem with that

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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2006, 02:02:55 PM »


Scream and howl as much as you like, but if a remake of say GBU is what it takes to kick the studios into action then I will not have to much of a problem with that

Me too. If that's what it takes to bring back westerns, then so be it!

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« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2006, 02:05:13 PM »

Charley Varrick, very good movie. One of my favourite.  If it qualifies as a noir it would make the list. A pity the dvd release sucks:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0003JANSW/sr=8-1/qid=1155758013/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-3013486-7216609?ie=UTF8

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« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2006, 04:02:00 PM »

I think you have to have something original or possibly rework a film that may have been good but had flaws.

That's why I'm saying perhaps we should look first at Clints American Westerns and envison them in a Spaghetti framework and see how they change, they would be easier because Eastwoods charater is already there, its the rest of the film that needs work.

Then we could Spaghettize other films, lol.


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« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2006, 06:04:24 PM »

Yeah, I see the idea. But the problem is there's no more any Clint around, no Coburn, no Bronson, no McQueen. Well, I shouldn't say that as I don't follow cinema.

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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2006, 07:21:58 PM »

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Yeah, I see the idea. But the problem is there's no more any Clint around, no Coburn, no Bronson, no McQueen. Well, I shouldn't say that as I don't follow cinema.


Well thats why we'd use old ideas first, once we get some type of formula we could tackle any film, I'm sure there are some actors in the wings that could step up to the plate.

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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2007, 11:45:11 AM »

bump  Afro

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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2007, 01:55:06 PM »

You've got a hell of a memory!

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« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2007, 08:53:26 AM »

This is still a very good thread, and one I agree with. Even OJW, which I once thought was great, and "Unforgiven", have soured for me somewhat after multiple viewings. Eastwood's films just don't have the style and the heft of Leone, his self-directed Westerns (except "Unforgiven") get by purely on Eastwood's charisma and star power.

I hope I get to make a Western some day, but then I also hope that I get to be a director. Grin I wouldn't directly remake a Leone film, but you can bet your ass I would be inspired by it to some degree.

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