Sergio Leone Web Board
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 12, 2017, 03:03:01 PM
Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
News:


+  Sergio Leone Web Board
|-+  Films of Sergio Leone
| |-+  Other Films (Moderators: cigar joe, moviesceleton, Dust Devil)
| | |-+  Pale Rider (1985)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Pale Rider (1985)  (Read 40749 times)
Groggy
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11458


This post gets Agnew's stamp of approval!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #135 on: March 19, 2012, 08:14:01 PM »

The quote isn't any less dumb in context. Ford's films aren't heavy on the Catholic imagery and themes? The difference is attitude not religion.

Logged


Saturday nights with Groggy
drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8443

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #136 on: March 20, 2012, 12:27:19 AM »

The quote isn't any less dumb in context. Ford's films aren't heavy on the Catholic imagery and themes? The difference is attitude not religion.

I have no idea wtf a "catholic western" or a "protestant western" is. And while I don't know much about Christianity, aren't crosses, angels, cemeteries, and insides of churches are as much a part of Protestant religions as Catholicism?

Frayling also spoke about how Leone didn't like the themes of the John Wayne Westerns, the whole Manifest Destiny stuff, which I believe he said was a Protestant ideal.

There is no doubt that Leone's films don't have the same attitudes toward the beauty of frontier life and Manifest Destiny and Indians etc. that some of the Ford/Wayne Westerns have. And while America then was a largely Protestant country, does that necessarily mean that it was a Protestant ideal? If Americans held a certain view of something and those Americans happened to be Protestants, does that necessarily mean that that attidtude arise from their religion? Perhaps when Frayling is discussing  Protestant vs. Catholic ideals, he is not necessarily referring to a religious divide, but more of an geographical one? (ie. the ideals of the English vs. those of the Italians, which are easily grouped into Protestants vs. Catholics, but not that it necessarily arises from one's Catholicism or another's Protestantism, just as there is nothing particularly Catholic about spaghetti and nothing particularly Protestant about tea?)

This is all just speculation, I really have no clue what the difference is between Protestant Westerns/imagery  and Catholic Westerns/imagery. If someone can explain it I'd be mighty appreciative.


-------------

(p.s. GROGGY: if there is indeed a difference between Protestant Westerns vs. Catholic Westerns, I do understand why Ford's would be categorized as "Protestant," although he himself was Irish Catholic: Ford's Westerns are famous for depicting the optimism of frontier life and Manifest Destiny, which are themes that I guess are associated with whatever a "protestant western" is. So to the extent that there is some difference between protestant and catholic westerns -- which I'd love it if it  can be explained -- I don't see why you would view Ford's as being  "Catholic," (aside from the fact that he himself was Catholic): his themes are miuch more in line with the classic American Western than with the Leone Western).

Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12779


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #137 on: March 20, 2012, 12:31:40 AM »

The quote isn't any less dumb in context. Ford's films aren't heavy on the Catholic imagery and themes? The difference is attitude not religion.

I'm not sure what you are getting at, Ford's Westerns where they reference religion are not heavy on Catholic themes and do reference the Protestant take, the bible,  the fellowship, the fire and brimstone preacher, the building of the sparse plain church, etc., etc.  Catholic themes would be Christ on the cross, Mary, the shrines, the statuary, the paintings, the stained glass windows, priests monks, sisters, you don't see much of that in the majority of American Westerns, one that comes to mind is The Bravados.

Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8443

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #138 on: March 20, 2012, 12:50:43 AM »

Here is a bit more from that discussion with Frayling. It was in a different part of the discussion and nothing is specifically mentioned of Protestant vs. Catholic, but it touches upon the difference in ideology between Leone's Westerns and Ford's Westerns, so I figure it may be relevant to transcribe here.

Relevant or not, enjoy!

INTERVIEWER: "He (Leone) knew he was making Westerns that were different from American ones. Like he said, and I think this was to you that he said this, in your interview with him, that John Ford, the great director of Westerns, 'was full of optimism, whereas I, on the contrary, am full of pessimism.'

FRAYLING: Well that's the thing: he loved the look of the Western, and the idea of the Western, and the fairy tale of the Western, but he didn't like some of the ideologies -- he didn't like John Wayne very much, and some of the sort of crusading element of the Western that you got in 50's and early 60's Westerns. So loved the visuals, didn't like the ideology very much. So he takes the concept of the Western, and makes it much much more cynical.

I mean the hero, for example, when people ask him , for example, "why are you doing this for us?" -- someone actually asks in FOD, the first of his Westerns -- instead of saying, you know, "because a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do," or "there are some things a man can't just ride around," things like that, he says, "Five hundred dollars." He works strictly for ready cash.

So he has a very street-wise 1960's cash-only attitude toward life. And this was a very different kind of hero -- much more grown-up kind of hero, to the old-fashioned crusading hero.

And I think that the modern movie action hero begins with the Clint Eastwood character in FOD, where you identify with the hero not because of what he believes in anymore -- cuz he doesn't actually believe in anything -- you identify with him because of his style: the way he wears his clothes, the way he walks, the personal style of the man; and that of course is the basis of identification of all modern action heroes. And I think it begins with Clint Eastwood in FOD."


« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 12:15:25 PM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12779


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #139 on: March 20, 2012, 01:12:47 AM »

Quote
And how many westerns with a Mexico\New Mexico look and with Mexicans having a leading part did you have prior to that one? None. M7 was shot in a Swiss Alps Mexico (or at least that was what it looked) and the Calvera gang had their counterpart in the good Mexicans with their women and children. In FOD and FFDM there was (almost) nothing of that.  The look of that landscape was nothing like it was until that moment: the first shot of Eastwood and the noose is something absolutely unseen before. And the kid maltreated by Volontè's gang? That can be perceived as a Southern border  town but it is a completely different cinematic landscape.

You are getting now into more specifics, I was being very general when I said the Almeria landscape looks like a passable Mexico, New Mexico, and that Indio and the Gang looked like Mexicans,  the general background, I wasn't talking about style.  Its what Leone did with that landscape, the style, cinematography and music is where we never saw Anything quite like it before in a Western.

Quote
Of course they raised the ante but they were not perceived as disruptive as Leone was because they came some 200 SW later. Actually I well remembered  (I wrote this here repeatedly) going to the theaters looking for SW because of their outrageousness: AW was too tame after Leone. I expected to find over the top action in SW: and they had to deliver. But that was because Leone had shown the way.  I am 100% sure that me and my father weren't alone in this preference.

Here is where you and I differ, I went to Leone Films expecting to see a very "Cool" take on a tired genre with stories and characters and action that were plausible to me in the Mythic world of the Western. 

I originally made a distinction, a compartment in my mind between the plausible and the outrageous, I loved American Westerns and Leone's Westerns the same way, and the only other SW films (since I hadn't seen very many) that I added to that cannon were "The Big Gundown" and "Death Rides a Horse".

Once they got too outrageous I didn't put them in the same class like say "Sabata" which I saw contemporaneously with the Leone films and I didn't like, and if I had seen "Django" it would have been definitely too implausible and outrageous to be taken seriously.

On the other hand I treated say the TV show The Wild Wild West as somewhat as a spoof, a not very serious Western and in that category I would put say Support Your Local Gunfighter, North To Alaska, Cat Balou, The Hallelujah Trail, McClintock,  and now since I've since seen them Sabata, Django, Sartana, The Specialist, Vamos a Matar Companeros, My Name Is Nobody, the Trinity films and a few others.


Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8443

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #140 on: March 20, 2012, 01:34:03 AM »



Here is where you and I differ, I went to Leone Films expecting to see a very "Cool" take on a tired genre with stories and characters and action that were plausible to me in the Mythic world of the Western.  

I originally made a distinction, a compartment in my mind between the plausible and the outrageous, I loved American Westerns and Leone's Westerns the same way, and the only other SW films (since I hadn't seen very many) that I added to that cannon were "The Big Gundown" and "Death Rides a Horse".

Once they got too outrageous I didn't put them in the same class like say "Sabata" which I saw contemporaneously with the Leone films and I didn't like, and if I had seen "Django" it would have been definitely too implausible and outrageous to be taken seriously.

On the other hand I treated say the TV show The Wild Wild West as somewhat as a spoof, a not very serious Western and in that category I would put say Support Your Local Gunfighter, North To Alaska, Cat Balou, The Hallelujah Trail, McClintock,  and now since I've since seen them Sabata, Django, Sartana, The Specialist, Vamos a Matar Companeros, My Name Is Nobody, the Trinity films and a few others.



The only non-Leone SW's that I have seen are:

1. The Big Gundown
2. The Mercenary
3. Death Rides a Horse
4. Django

(I have seen My Name is Nobody, but for this and all discussions, I consider MNIN to be a Leone film. So MNIN is always included in my discussions of "Leone films," and never included in my discussions of non-Leone SW.

The Big Gundown  and The Mercenarywere good. I did not love Death Rides a Horse  -- despite being treated to the site of Mario Brega and Luigilli Pistilli dressed in business attire as business men  Grin Grin -- cuz John Philip Law is terrible. And I did not like Django  very much.
 No doubt, all these movies are waaaaaay over the top and outrageous.

I though The Merceneray was absolutely  terrific, but it has to be viewed in context of a comedy. Without officially being a "comedy," it was more outrageous than any comedy you could actually hope to see: a mediaterannean take on drama ?  Wink

« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 01:35:42 AM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12779


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #141 on: March 20, 2012, 01:44:30 AM »

I look a MNIN as not really a Leone film you can see his influence here and there but I generally hate slapstick, but that was the trend in SW at the time it was made, so if you wanted to make money you would have to jump on the band wagon.

Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8443

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #142 on: March 20, 2012, 01:48:34 AM »

I look a MNIN as not really a Leone film you can see his influence here and there but I generally hate slapstick, but that was the trend in SW at the time it was made, so if you wanted to make money you would have to jump on the band wagon.

yeah well if people were gonna make money parodying the genre that Leone popularized, it was natural that Leone would be one of those doing it!

I'm not into comedy at all, but in this case, with Leone playing a large part in it, I was able to enjoy some of it; the contrast between the old West  (Fonda, representing the American West and its hero) and the new brash young wannabe (Terence Hill, representing the SW), and basically, this movie is about what has been happening for the past 7 or 8 years  Wink (There were parts that dragged needlessly, but overall, I did enjoy the themes of MNIN!

« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 08:52:31 AM by drinkanddestroy » Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12779


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #143 on: March 20, 2012, 01:53:07 AM »

yeah well if people were gonna make money parodying the genre that Leone popularized, it was natural that Leone would be one of those doing it!

But from what I've read at the time he didn't like that trend hence he just produced it and its companion "A Genius Two friends and an Idiot" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073036/

Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8443

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #144 on: March 20, 2012, 01:56:37 AM »

But from what I've read at the time he didn't like that trend hence he just produced it and its companion "A Genius Two friends and an Idiot" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073036/

That's the only film I have never seen that Leone was  seriously involved with, I think I might have to see it just for the sake of seeing, even though from what I hear, it's not worth the time...

Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12779


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #145 on: March 20, 2012, 02:19:01 AM »

That's the only film I have never seen that Leone was  seriously involved with, I think I might have to see it just for the sake of seeing, even though from what I hear, it's not worth the time...

I haven't seen it either  Cry

Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
Groggy
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11458


This post gets Agnew's stamp of approval!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #146 on: March 20, 2012, 04:19:49 AM »

I'm not sure what you are getting at, Ford's Westerns where they reference religion are not heavy on Catholic themes and do reference the Protestant take, the bible,  the fellowship, the fire and brimstone preacher, the building of the sparse plain church, etc., etc.  Catholic themes would be Christ on the cross, Mary, the shrines, the statuary, the paintings, the stained glass windows, priests monks, sisters, you don't see much of that in the majority of American Westerns, one that comes to mind is The Bravados.

Ever see Three Godfathers? Lots of Catholic imagery in that one. The "miraculous" births in that one and Stagecoach and the fallen women not uncommon to Ford's films could also fit this. You could certainly argue personal redemption (one of Ford's favorite themes) is a much more Catholic theme than a Protestant one.

Logged


Saturday nights with Groggy
titoli
Bounty Killer
*****
Online Online

Posts: 8010



View Profile
« Reply #147 on: March 20, 2012, 10:48:06 AM »

You are getting now into more specifics, I was being very general when I said the Almeria landscape looks like a passable Mexico, New Mexico, and that Indio and the Gang looked like Mexicans,  the general background, I wasn't talking about style.  Its what Leone did with that landscape, the style, cinematography and music is where we never saw Anything quite like it before in a Western.


What I mean is that the Leone landscape could look like real american landscape to people who knew the real thing. But to people around the world who had their rations of western flicks that didn't look like any other AW landscape seen before.


Here is where you and I differ, I went to Leone Films expecting to see a very "Cool" take on a tired genre with stories and characters and action that were plausible to me in the Mythic world of the Western. 

I originally made a distinction, a compartment in my mind between the plausible and the outrageous, I loved American Westerns and Leone's Westerns the same way, and the only other SW films (since I hadn't seen very many) that I added to that cannon were "The Big Gundown" and "Death Rides a Horse".

What you define "cool" now was defined as "outrageous" by most at the time. Especially in USA. I could make lots of examples in that regard. Just think of the faces of the bit players: how were they defined at the time? "Cool"? They were (and still are, for me at least) outrageous. The poncho is another thing I call "outrageous", though now you can call it "cool".  I think the difference between me and you lies in the fact that spaghetti westerns weren't your regular diet in the post-FOD years like they were of mine. And I was a kid then. You saw them as an adult, if at all, and that makes a lot of difference.

Logged

drinkanddestroy
Global Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8443

trust a man who wears both a belt and suspenders?


View Profile
« Reply #148 on: March 20, 2012, 12:22:07 PM »

I don't think Leone's films are nearly as outrageous and over the top as are some of the other famous SW's like The Mercenary or Django. Leone may have paved the way for films like that, but those films took the over the top shtick to an entire new level.

True, it's very hard to know whether you would have thought of a film differently if you had seen it at a different time in your life. For me, Leone's Westerns were basically the first Westerns that I saw; only after watching all of Leone's, did I begin watching all the classic AW's. So that's definitely very different than someone who grew up with the classic AW's and then walks into a theater in 1967, and suddenly it's  "my mistake, 4 coffins!"

Logged

There are three types of people in the world, my friend: those who can add, and those who can't.
cigar joe
Moderator
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12779


easy come easy go


View Profile
« Reply #149 on: March 20, 2012, 03:33:07 PM »


What I mean is that the Leone landscape could look like real american landscape to people who knew the real thing. But to people around the world who had their rations of western flicks that didn't look like any other AW landscape seen before.

Ok I can see that.


Quote
What you define "cool" now was defined as "outrageous" by most at the time. Especially in USA. I could make lots of examples in that regard. Just think of the faces of the bit players: how were they defined at the time? "Cool"? They were (and still are, for me at least) outrageous. The poncho is another thing I call "outrageous", though now you can call it "cool".  I think the difference between me and you lies in the fact that spaghetti westerns weren't your regular diet in the post-FOD years like they were of mine. And I was a kid then. You saw them as an adult, if at all, and that makes a lot of difference.

As a kid I though they were "cool" (Leone's Films), Fuck Vincent Canby and Pauline Kael they may have thought it was outrageous but the Box Office obviously proved otherwise  Wink

Logged

"When you feel that rope tighten on your neck you can feel the devil bite your ass"!
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11 12 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Visit FISTFUL-OF-LEONE.COM

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.048 seconds with 19 queries.