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Author Topic: Pale Rider (1985)  (Read 40706 times)
Groggy
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« Reply #150 on: March 20, 2012, 05:05:20 PM »

I think one could argue the films' success in America had to do with their very strangeness. When your alternative is cliche-ridden John Wayne vehicles and B-movie program filler you want something that's not like every other Western out there.

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stanton
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« Reply #151 on: March 21, 2012, 03:43:01 AM »

Only that most "cliche-ridden Wayne movies" of that time made more money than the Leones in the USA.

The Dollar trilogy made a lot of money for UA cause they bought them for comparatively nothing, but they weren't as successful as many, many of the US westerns made in the late 60s.

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« Reply #152 on: March 21, 2012, 03:57:26 AM »

As a kid I though they were "cool" (Leone's Films), Fuck Vincent Canby and Pauline Kael they may have thought it was outrageous but the Box Office obviously proved otherwise  Wink

As noted by stanton, they were not as succesful in USA as most of the John Wayne's fare was at the time. And not even remotely succesful as they were in Italy and the rest of the world. So there was that perception of outrageousness of what now we call "cool" even in a large quota of the american audience, probably.

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drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #153 on: March 21, 2012, 04:17:49 AM »

idk wtf "cliche-ridden John Wayne Westerns" means. yeah they were very different from Leone's, but many of them were damn good in their own right: Fort Apache, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, Rio Bravo, Red River, The Shootist, Stagecoach, The Cowboys, The Horse Soldiers, El Dorado, Three Godfathers, The Searchers,  True Grit... Just some of the great John Wayne Westerns.
To the extent that there are "cliche's," well., Wayne (along with Ford and a few others) is one who created the cliche. Stagecoach was Wayne's breakout role, and also probably the first great Western, the one that started the Golden Age of Westerns (cj defined that as '39-'73). I mean, how many great Westerns can you think of from before Stagecoach? Every pre-1939 Western I saw was pretty bad.

So that to the extent something is "cliche'd," it is Wayne himself who is one of the fathers of those cliches. And even if you don't like Wayne's ideologies about the West: not all of Wayne's films contain those ideologies.

So while you may like Leone's Westerns better than Wayne's Westerns (and I love all of Leone's films better than any other films, period), let's not discredit John Wayne, who was in some amazing films, and was one of the most important personalities in the American Western (along with others such as Ford and Hawks)


(btw, RE: the list above of great Wayne Westerns: I have included all those Wayne Westerns that I love, plus a few that I personally don't love but which are generally very well-loved, including The Searchers, True Grit, Three Godfathers, and El Dorado)

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« Reply #154 on: March 21, 2012, 04:24:27 AM »

Aside from El Dorado none of those movies were released in the '60s. You clearly missed the point of my comment.

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Groggy
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« Reply #155 on: March 21, 2012, 04:25:23 AM »

Only that most "cliche-ridden Wayne movies" of that time made more money than the Leones in the USA.

The Dollar trilogy made a lot of money for UA cause they bought them for comparatively nothing, but they weren't as successful as many, many of the US westerns made in the late 60s.

This is true. It's still a stretch to suggest they were a hit because they were like every other Western out there, which is demonstrably untrue.

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drinkanddestroy
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« Reply #156 on: March 21, 2012, 10:03:48 PM »

Aside from El Dorado none of those movies were released in the '60s. You clearly missed the point of my comment.

So the Wayne Westerns of the 60's were cliche-ridden, but not the Wayne Westerns of the 40's and 50's?

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« Reply #157 on: March 22, 2012, 04:40:43 AM »

This was around the time Duke started palling around with Andy McLaglen. Cliche-ridden is another term for crap.

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« Reply #158 on: March 25, 2012, 02:32:35 AM »

Your criticisms don't seem to make much sense. You say it's partly like a Coen Bros. film and partly like No Country for Old Men? How does that compute?

Of course, I meant it's partly like a regular Coen Bros. film and partly like NCFOM, which is NOT a regular Coen Bros. film. The closest film they had done at the time was Fargo, and it's still a comedy before being anything else.

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« Reply #159 on: March 25, 2012, 03:25:39 AM »

Of course, I meant it's partly like a regular Coen Bros. film and partly like NCFOM, which is NOT a regular Coen Bros. film. The closest film they had done at the time was Fargo, and it's still a comedy before being anything else.

Fargo is a comedy?? 

Sure, a big part of the movie are the accents/mannerisms of their area of the Northwest -- and that stuff may indeed be in a joking/light manner -- but still, there is no way you can say it's "a comedy before anything else."
(btw, I see that on Wikipedia, it is listed as "a dark comedy-crime film," and on imdb, which basically assigns numerous different genres to every movie, it is listed as "Crime, Drama, and Thriller." Just mentioning that, not that what some dude writes on wikipedia or imdb means anything).

Fargo is a very serious movie, and certainly is a crime drama. As with many, many  dramas, it has comedic elements, and the accents and mannerisms of the Northwest indeed are a big part of the movie. Yeah, you can say that those references cultural references to the area are a character -- perhaps even the main character -- in the movie. But it is a very serious movie, and the actions in it have very serious consequences. I have to respectfully disagree with the assertion that it is a "comedy before anything else."  Smiley

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« Reply #160 on: March 25, 2012, 07:26:24 AM »

Of course, I meant it's partly like a regular Coen Bros. film and partly like NCFOM, which is NOT a regular Coen Bros. film. The closest film they had done at the time was Fargo, and it's still a comedy before being anything else.

That's debatable. No Country is crammed with very black humor.

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« Reply #161 on: March 25, 2012, 08:15:16 AM »

Sometimes it just seems that the critics are "in cahoots" about films.  The Leone films were pretty much universally panned in the US by critics when first released, but nowadays the very same films are considered legendary and masterpieces.  Even by the very same critics.

Everybody is different, would've expected some critics to really like these films in the late 1960s.  Personally, I think "2001" was sucky, loved "Clockwork Orange", I just make up my own mind.

Sure, Citizen Kane was innovative technically, but not a real good film to watch, all based upon the final word of a man who died alone.  So who heard "Rosebud" if he died alone !!!!

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Groggy
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« Reply #162 on: March 25, 2012, 08:59:16 AM »

Sure, Citizen Kane was innovative technically, but not a real good film to watch,

I'd very much beg to differ. If anything the technical elements are overpraised to the story's detriment.

Quote
all based upon the final word of a man who died alone.  So who heard "Rosebud" if he died alone !!!!

It's pretty clear Kane's Butler heard him. I don't know why this frequently gets cited as a plot hole.

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« Reply #163 on: March 25, 2012, 01:29:42 PM »

That's debatable. No Country is crammed with very black humor.

Yes... It's actually quite easy to spot The Coen signature in it. To me it is the perfect "Coen Bros. meet a genre" film. It's a thriller made by the Coen Bros., not a film that would have been a thriller if dne by somebody else (like Fargo, to me: I laugh in every scene, every line, every new character, everything, actually, even the darkest elements are nothing but black humor to me, appart from the night car chase).

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« Reply #164 on: March 25, 2012, 05:47:24 PM »

Fargo is a comedy?? 

Sure, a big part of the movie are the accents/mannerisms of their area of the Northwest -- and that stuff may indeed be in a joking/light manner -- but still, there is no way you can say it's "a comedy before anything else."
Minnesota is the Northwest?

I don't disagree with your main point, but I will mention that when I saw the film in a theater on its initial run (in the real Northwest) the audience was laughing all the way through it. Sometimes I joined in, but very often I did not, and it was kind of a creepy experience, like somehow I'd missed an important memo. I really did not enjoy the showing, and I came out of the theater thinking the Coens had blown it, that they'd made an unfunny comedy. It was only later, rewatching it on LD, that I realized how good the film was and how it wasn't like a comedy at all, but a serious drama with occasional humorous material thrown in. It's a film that isn't easily pigeonholed, which may be why that audience at the theater acted the way they did. I guess they had decided in advance that the film was a comedy, and they were going to find some laughs in it, and plenty, damn it. Maybe people from that screening are still posting on the internet, helpful arbiters of taste that they are.

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