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« on: January 11, 2005, 04:58:08 AM »

Looks like out the SW explotation which ran about 1964 to 1977 we got about six or seven capable directors out of which emerged one genius.  Out of 500 plus films we have maybe 20 good films.

Out of these directors and films, a general pattern emerges, each made a a good Spaghetti Western, a Zapata Western and then a Comedy Spaghetti. Leone and Corbucci since they started very early in the Genre were able to make a few more Spaghetti''s than the rest.

You would think that if the genre was not quite as popular as it became, it might have been able to sustain itself but the flood of exploitation must have run the well of creativity dry quickly. If ideas were able to develope a bit slowly many more great films may have emerged, but the competion and quick developement had to take even good ideas and rush them out before the next guy came up with it.

Oh well,  Embarrassed

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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2005, 07:10:52 AM »

Interesting post Cigar Joe.
I still thing it was all over by 1972. With the birth of the parody ones  ''Trinity''. Leone seemed to keep getting drawn back into making westerns he had ideas on making a ganster film as early as 1967 from ''The Hoods''.
Sollima had left Spag westerns by 1970 putting his political ideas into Crime Thrillers.
 
By the early seventies Bruce Lee had come and gone, and early death had sealed his legend. Kung Fu movies where the new disposable cinema. Golden Harvest Productions replaced Grimbaldi in the double bills.
It even made its presents felt even in Spaghetti Westerns..
The Stranger and the Gunfighter (1972)
Kung Fu Brothers in the Wild West (1973)   
alot of them Hong Kong/Italian co-productions. Old making way for the new maybe...

Another thing, which was a overall sign of the times in the early 70s Europe, recession was high. by 1975 U.S. companies had withdrew almost all support for foriegn film interest, on a political and financial statement after the Vietnam War. Alot of film companies in Europe which Hollywood had helped and some bought since the time of the great U.F.A. (Fritz Lang''s German Studio 1927) up to Hammer/Tigon (UK mid 1960s) were sustaining by these funds, dwindled for a few years. slipped into recession and unproductiveness.
In the italian Spaghetti Western Industry that would cover Columbia, MGM, UA and ABKCO leaving the country for the homeland.
They would be back one day, but it was too late for some.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2005, 12:19:02 PM by The Smoker » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2005, 07:27:28 AM »

agree with u guys.

Ive always held a very simple stance on this.

Leone was the only great Spaghetti Western director.

the vast majority of spaghettis were cheap, shoddy, rip-offs of the early films, with a couple of films standing out and becoming popular films though that doesnt mean i think theyre all any good!!! im thinking The Great Silence, The Big Gundown, Django, Keoma etc.

But these standout directors Corbucci, Sollima, Tessari etc, made films that were more groundbreaking than good. At the end of the day they were all B-movies, but theres alot of political and cinematic experimentation, though its not really artful.

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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2005, 08:00:15 AM »

I have somewhere in my files an article from early 1970s from a Chicago Sunday newspaper called "A Spaghetti Paradise Lost" which details the problems in Europe leading to the decline of the SWs.  These included the Spaniards not happy with the pay as extras, stuff like that.  The film being described in the article was "Indio Black" with Yul Brynner which was released in the US as "Adios Sabata" by Gianfranco Parolini (Frank Kramer).  Maybe someone can find that electronically and post it.

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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2005, 04:29:10 PM »

I only stretched it to 1977 to cover Keoma and Mannaja  Grin.

In reality it was an even shorter period by early seventies they were down to a handfull of productions when in the heyday it was up to 50+ per year.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 04:36:44 AM by cigar joe » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2005, 08:40:33 AM »

I hope to see enough of those 500+ spaghetti's one of these days to be able to say that the majority are bad films. I'm sure that there have to be plenty of forgotten gems amongst the crap that I just haven't had the opportunity to see yet. Again, I say to have a taste for Spaghetti Westerns, you have to have a taste for what many would call bad, or just plain cheesy movies, and I do. Grin

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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2005, 04:09:31 PM »

Giulio Petroni's "Tepepa" is one of those little known gems, Tomas Milian, John Stiener, Orson Welles. English cut release was called "Blood & Guns", a good find.

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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2005, 04:33:43 PM »

Quote
The film being described in the article was "Indio Black"


I went to see the movie with my father and two of my uncles who, after not even half an hour, decided they had had enough and left the theatre. I saw again the movie , or tried to, in the '80's, on TV, but can't remember much. Was it that bad?

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« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2005, 05:05:56 PM »



I went to see the movie with my father and two of my uncles who, after not even half an hour, decided they had had enough and left the theatre. I saw again the movie , or tried to, in the '80's, on TV, but can't remember much. Was it that bad?

See...http://www.moviegrooves.com/shop/indioblacksoundtrack.htm

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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2005, 07:53:49 AM »

I have somewhere in my files an article from early 1970s from a Chicago Sunday newspaper called "A Spaghetti Paradise Lost" which details the problems in Europe leading to the decline of the SWs.  These included the Spaniards not happy with the pay as extras, stuff like that.  The film being described in the article was "Indio Black" with Yul Brynner which was released in the US as "Adios Sabata" by Gianfranco Parolini (Frank Kramer).  Maybe someone can find that electronically and post it.
Was this also released as THE BOUNTY HUNTERS? If it was, and if it is the one I thinking of, it ranks imo as one of the most dreadful spags ever made. No wonder the industry died a death when they were churning out shite like this!

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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2005, 08:58:49 AM »

Was this also released as THE BOUNTY HUNTERS? If it was, and if it is the one I thinking of, it ranks imo as one of the most dreadful spags ever made. No wonder the industry died a death when they were churning out shite like this!

INDIO BLACK / THE BOUNTY HUNTERS became ADIOS SABATA in the US( Same director)

I like this one. Slightly goofy, GREAT score by Bruno Nicolai(Morricone's collaborator). A classic SW genre film.

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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2005, 11:06:51 AM »

Hard to believe, but in the early 1970s I saw this twice in one night at the theater, with the Reivers sandwiched in between.  Now my poor old ass couldn't sit that long ....

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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2013, 09:14:36 PM »

Looks like out the SW explotation which ran about 1964 to 1977 we got about six or seven capable directors out of which emerged one genius.  Out of 500 plus films we have maybe 20 good films.

Out of these directors and films, a general pattern emerges, each made a a good Spaghetti Western, a Zapata Western and then a Comedy Spaghetti. Leone and Corbucci since they started very early in the Genre were able to make a few more Spaghetti''s than the rest.

You would think that if the genre was not quite as popular as it became, it might have been able to sustain itself but the flood of exploitation must have run the well of creativity dry quickly. If ideas were able to develope a bit slowly many more great films may have emerged, but the competion and quick developement had to take even good ideas and rush them out before the next guy came up with it.

Oh well,  Embarrassed

For me, that "one genius" was the one who took SW most seriously, I think if someone were to show that exact approach to SW's, the genre itself might be able to get back up on its feet again.

It kind of reminds me of how Christopher Nolan approached Batman seriously with Batman Begins, after the death of the franchise in Batman and Robin, as he really tried to deconstruct the character of Batman and explore that in Batman Begins, and developed that further with the next two sequels.

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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2013, 09:49:50 PM »

Looks like out the SW explotation which ran about 1964 to 1977 we got about six or seven capable directors out of which emerged one genius.  Out of 500 plus films we have maybe 20 good films.

Out of these directors and films, a general pattern emerges, each made a a good Spaghetti Western, a Zapata Western and then a Comedy Spaghetti. Leone and Corbucci since they started very early in the Genre were able to make a few more Spaghetti''s than the rest.

You would think that if the genre was not quite as popular as it became, it might have been able to sustain itself but the flood of exploitation must have run the well of creativity dry quickly. If ideas were able to develope a bit slowly many more great films may have emerged, but the competion and quick developement had to take even good ideas and rush them out before the next guy came up with it.

Oh well,  Embarrassed

I've only seen about 5 or so spags besides Leone's, so I am no scholar on the subject. so taking your givens, that there were only about 20 good movies out of 500, a handful of good directors and one legend, and the sub-genre was dead within a decade:

Firstly, IMO Leone is the greatest director ever and no one else is even close, so for me, if a genre produced Leone's 5 Westerns, it is worthwhile and a smashing success even if it produced five thousand pieces of crap. But let's set that aside:

I recall Frayling saying how Italian cinema in those days was, one successful movie would come out, and then a million others would try to copy it, before it ran out of steam; then another successful movie from a different (sub)genre came out, everyone tried to copy it, before it ran out of steam and then moved on to the next one, etc.

eg. you had the muscleman movies and the sword-and-sandal movies before the spags. so perhaps it's not like the rise and fall of the spag was a sad epoch in the history of Italian cinema; maybe it was just one part of a predictable cycle?


Additionally, look at the effects the spag had on the AW. The bastard child influenced the distinguished father! If spags introduced and influenced the AW, and perhaps movies in general, on the ideas of violence and bad guys with dirty faces and dirty-looking towns and heroes who wear grey hats, isn't that a great accomplishment? Sometimes, even more impressive than introducing a new concept is influencing your predecessors to follow in your example!

Wouldn't you say that the effect that the spag had on the AW -- and perhaps on movies itself -- was great?

Finally, if you are looking at the spag on an equal footing with other 9sub)genres, then it may seem disappointing. but you can't look at it that way. Rather, look at it for what it was: a bunch of mostly very cheaply-made movies that had very little respect from critics and the long-time Western stars and Hollywood stars in general, which were considered bastardized children to say the least, and ultimately actually had a significant influence and a cult following and made a solid handful of really good movies -- far better than any of the "classic" Western peeps would have imagined or given them credit for.

Imagine like the bastard child is born with no arms or legs or brain and he does much better than can be expected with what he has. maybe if you compare him to the first-born strong healthy son, he would look pathetic, but say, compared to what he had and what he was given and what was expected of him, he did damn good for himself! Would most people living during the spag craze have imagined (even if they had known that there would be home video) that there would be websites and fan clubs nearly 50 years later dedicated to their beloved bastard-child sub-genre?

Considering all that, maybe the bastard child sub-genre did pretty well for itself!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

now, if none of that rambling convinces you, and you still want a sad morbid thought to chew over, how about this one: what would the spag sub-genre be without Leone? at least with Leone, they have their one shining star, who shines brightly even when compared with directors of other cinema. But without that one man, would the spag genre have any respect at all? sure, there were a handul of guys that, as cj says, were solid, but were they only solid as in "these are among the better spag directors"? or would they be respected even in a conversation of all-time  great Hollywood directors? Can a genre or sub-genre be respected if it's entire legitimacy comes from one man?

if you say that, here is one more thought for you to chew on, in response: where would the AW be without John Ford? Sure, there are other directors that are considered great and made movies that are considered among the best of the genre, but almost any top-1o list of AW's is dominated by Ford films. Not only that, but all the "anti western AW's" the ones going "against the conventions of the genre," perhaps can be said, just as accurately, to be the "anti Ford," or "going against the conventions of Ford"?

(of course, there are other greats, most notably Howard Hawks, who made 2 AW's routinely considered in the top 5 of all-time. But I think the point about Ford remains. If Hawks didn't exist, the AW would be missing two of it's greatest movies ever -- maybe THE TOP 2 greatest ever -- but the genre would still be there. Without Ford, could you not analogize the AW to the SW without Leone?



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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2013, 10:10:09 PM »

I've only seen about 5 or so spags besides Leone's, so I am no scholar on the subject. so taking your givens, that there were only about 20 good movies out of 500, a handful of good directors and one legend, and the sub-genre was dead within a decade:

Firstly, IMO Leone is the greatest director ever and no one else is even close, so for me, if a genre produced Leone's 5 Westerns, it is worthwhile and a smashing success even if it produced five thousand pieces of crap. But let's set that aside:

I recall Frayling saying how Italian cinema in those days was, one successful movie would come out, and then a million others would try to copy it, before it ran out of steam; then another successful movie from a different (sub)genre came out, everyone tried to copy it, before it ran out of steam and then moved on to the next one, etc.

eg. you had the muscleman movies and the sword-and-sandal movies before the spags. so perhaps it's not like the rise and fall of the spag was a sad epoch in the history of Italian cinema; maybe it was just one part of a predictable cycle?


Additionally, look at the effects the spag had on the AW. The bastard child influenced the distinguished father! If spags introduced and influenced the AW, and perhaps movies in general, on the ideas of violence and bad guys with dirty faces and dirty-looking towns and heroes who wear grey hats, isn't that a great accomplishment? Sometimes, even more impressive than introducing a new concept is influencing your predecessors to follow in your example!

Wouldn't you say that the effect that the spag had on the AW -- and perhaps on movies itself -- was great?

Finally, if you are looking at the spag on an equal footing with other 9sub)genres, then it may seem disappointing. but you can't look at it that way. Rather, look at it for what it was: a bunch of mostly very cheaply-made movies that had very little respect from critics and the long-time Western stars and Hollywood stars in general, which were considered bastardized children to say the least, and ultimately actually had a significant influence and a cult following and made a solid handful of really good movies -- far better than any of the "classic" Western peeps would have imagined or given them credit for.

Imagine like the bastard child is born with no arms or legs or brain and he does much better than can be expected with what he has. maybe if you compare him to the first-born strong healthy son, he would look pathetic, but say, compared to what he had and what he was given and what was expected of him, he did damn good for himself! Would most people living during the spag craze have imagined (even if they had known that there would be home video) that there would be websites and fan clubs nearly 50 years later dedicated to their beloved bastard-child sub-genre?

Considering all that, maybe the bastard child sub-genre did pretty well for itself!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

now, if none of that rambling convinces you, and you still want a sad morbid thought to chew over, how about this one: what would the spag sub-genre be without Leone? at least with Leone, they have their one shining star, who shines brightly even when compared with directors of other cinema. But without that one man, would the spag genre have any respect at all? sure, there were a handul of guys that, as cj says, were solid, but were they only solid as in "these are among the better spag directors"? or would they be respected even in a conversation of all-time  great Hollywood directors? Can a genre or sub-genre be respected if it's entire legitimacy comes from one man?

if you say that, here is one more thought for you to chew on, in response: where would the AW be without John Ford? Sure, there are other directors that are considered great and made movies that are considered among the best of the genre, but almost any top-1o list of AW's is dominated by Ford films. Not only that, but all the "anti western AW's" the ones going "against the conventions of the genre," perhaps can be said, just as accurately, to be the "anti Ford," or "going against the conventions of Ford"?

(of course, there are other greats, most notably Howard Hawks, who made 2 AW's routinely considered in the top 5 of all-time. But I think the point about Ford remains. If Hawks didn't exist, the AW would be missing two of it's greatest movies ever -- maybe THE TOP 2 greatest ever -- but the genre would still be there. Without Ford, could you not analogize the AW to the SW without Leone?




Interesting to think about, I'm currently reading the OUATITW chapter of STDWD and Leone goes into detail on how Ford inspired him to demythologise the west, especially with The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.

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