Sergio Leone Web Board
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 25, 2022, 08:54:01 PM
:


+  Sergio Leone Web Board
|-+  Films of Sergio Leone
| |-+  Once Upon A Time In America (Moderators: cigar joe, moviesceleton, Dust Devil)
| | |-+  Leone's debt to Peckinpah
0 and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
: [1] 2 3
: Leone's debt to Peckinpah  ( 17087 )
dave jenkins
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16065


"One banana, two banana, three banana, four...."


« : June 03, 2005, 11:21:03 PM »

Watched the newly remastered DVD of The Getaway (1972) this weekend, and was struck by the fact that several elements of this film find their way into OUATIA. For example, there are a couple sequences where standard film chronology is ignored, resulting in interesting bits of time displacement. Then there is an important plot point that turns on the placing of a large amount of money inside a train station locker. Finally, a garbage truck has an important role in the story.

Oh, and the actor Richard Bright makes an appearance, who later played one of the goons who gave Jimmy Cleanhands a gasoline bath.



"McFilms are commodities and, as such, must be QA'd according to industry standards."
Walton
Bandido
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 85


I'm a llama!


« #1 : June 04, 2005, 03:20:15 AM »

I seem to remember from Fraylings book that there was a whole host of gangster movies Leone used as inspiration and reference, although I can't recall mention of The Getaway - might have to have another read...

redyred
Gunslinger
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 499


Ever the facetious one


« #2 : June 04, 2005, 12:11:30 PM »

I think it's more likely both Peckinpah and Leone were referencing older (gangster) films.


It's class.
grandpa_chum
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 833



« #3 : June 06, 2005, 11:45:02 AM »

I think redyred is right... i think if anyone is debted to anyone it's peckinpah to leone... when I'm watching the wild bunch I feel like I'm watching leone jr... don't take that the wrong way, cause peckinpah is one of the very few directors I hold as highly an opinion of as I do leone... I just don't know where this seemingly widespread idea is that peckinpah influenced leone.


Harmonica: So, you're not a businessman after all.
Frank: Just a man.
Harmonica: An ancient race...
dave jenkins
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16065


"One banana, two banana, three banana, four...."


« #4 : June 06, 2005, 04:14:38 PM »

I think they influenced each other. The Wild Bunch takes something from Leone, but then DYS takes something from The Wild Bunch. These guys knew what was going on in cinema, knew who the top guns were, the guys they had to beat. It's like the putative rivalry between the Beach Boys and the Beatles; every time one would release something, the other would assimilate it and try to top it.

Anyway, I defy anyone to watch Steve McQueen in The Getaway looking desperately into a train station locker and NOT think of Noodles in a similar plight. And when Steve and Ali McGraw get dumped into the back of a garbage truck, well, all I can tell you is the Leone must have seen that scene and, perhaps unconciously, transmuted it into that famous moment in his last film.



"McFilms are commodities and, as such, must be QA'd according to industry standards."
grandpa_chum
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 833



« #5 : June 09, 2005, 10:02:06 PM »

don't take what I said the wrong way, I'm not denying leone had any influence on leone, I'm just saying debt may be a strong word, anyway, I do agree with you about the locker and the garbage truck, but redyred's theory sounds likely... those things seem to standard to have originated in the 70's or 80's... more likely the 30's and 40's and probably movies that they both saw and admired.


Harmonica: So, you're not a businessman after all.
Frank: Just a man.
Harmonica: An ancient race...
jerkface
Bandido
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 53

You eat guts.


« #6 : June 10, 2005, 07:50:38 AM »

I don't think Peckinpah and Leone owe each other in the slightest. I don't see any blatant ripping off between the two. They worked within the same genre during the same time period. Naturally, some themes and plot devices overlap. I think that's par for the course. I'm just so damn glad they did what they did. Between the two of them, that's a lot of great, great, great filmmaking.

As for The Getaway and OUATIA... that's a pretty interesting observation. I happen to own both dvd's and never once did I notice this connection. I'm going to have to re-evaluate. Other than these few instances though, these films don't have much in common. The Getaway was "just a genre picture" for Peckinpah. Albeit, a very good genre picture. He wanted a hit. OUATIA is Leone's magnum opus that he'd been planning for years.

I wonder if Leone really was referencing Peckinpah. Could be, but like I said before, within the same genre some plot devices often get repeated.

Speaking of The Getaway, it's really funny to me if you contrast a hit film from the early 70's to a hit film of today. The Getaway is far more disturbing than any contemporary hit film. The part where Al Lettieri's character abducts the veteranarian and his wife is so twisted. Ah, Peckinpah...


"Well... that's just like, your opinion, man"
grandpa_chum
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 833



« #7 : June 10, 2005, 08:47:58 AM »

As for working in the same genre, for me, and i could be completely off-base but this is how i've always seen it... it's not so much that peckinpah or leone ripped each other off or anything like that, for me, in a general way not related to this specific incident the thread is addressing, it's more about peckinpah getting credit for starting the genre, or doing something completely unique and amazing, more than his actual movies... i mean he gets credit for doing something completely new with the wild bunch simply because he was the first american to do it, if it were a spaghetti western, besides being a great one, it would not have been anything revolutionary. He also gets credit for being the first one to make an ultra-violent western when corbucci had been doing it for years... so it's not so much that peckinpah or leone ripped each other off, cause they are two very very different directors, it's just that peckinpah get's a lot of credit for stuff that was being done already in Europe.... that is the way I see it anyhow.


Harmonica: So, you're not a businessman after all.
Frank: Just a man.
Harmonica: An ancient race...
jerkface
Bandido
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 53

You eat guts.


« #8 : June 10, 2005, 11:42:39 AM »

As for working in the same genre, for me, and i could be completely off-base but this is how i've always seen it... it's not so much that peckinpah or leone ripped each other off or anything like that, for me, in a general way not related to this specific incident the thread is addressing, it's more about peckinpah getting credit for starting the genre, or doing something completely unique and amazing, more than his actual movies... i mean he gets credit for doing something completely new with the wild bunch simply because he was the first american to do it, if it were a spaghetti western, besides being a great one, it would not have been anything revolutionary. He also gets credit for being the first one to make an ultra-violent western when corbucci had been doing it for years... so it's not so much that peckinpah or leone ripped each other off, cause they are two very very different directors, it's just that peckinpah get's a lot of credit for stuff that was being done already in Europe.... that is the way I see it anyhow.

Right on, I can see your point, although I'm unclear about a few things. I'm not exactly sure what credit Peckinpah is given, as you have stated.

First of all, I think a few things are worth mentioning. I'm a 24 year old American. I'm lucky to find people who know these two directors by name, let alone give any sort of credit to them. Maybe it's my demographic (probably). Maybe 24 year old Americans have no sense of film history (partially true). I don't know a lot of people to talk to about old Westerns, save for my friends who I've introduced these movies to. Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time at work by posting on message boards about movies made long before I was born. You've stated that Peckinpah has been given some sort of credit, which I assume must be attributed to people with whom you are peers. So, I'm a little in the dark regarding who's giving who credit for what.

That said, I think the general notion is that The Wild Bunch was the most violent American film of it's time. There were precursors, such as Bonnie and Clyde and other films that had moments of relatively extreme violence. But no American film before The Wild Bunch contained such overt violence. This appears to be an accepted notion that I can vouch for as I'm not aware of a more violent American film prior to 1969.

Obviously censors were pretty strong in America at that time, and still are but in a different way. In Europe, as you said, it was another story. Some claim that the only reason American audiences flocked to see Blow Up and other European films was because of sensationalism. Apparently no one had ever seen pubic hair before. Probably not.

It seems that your beef is with spaghetti westerns not getting more credit for their depiction of violence. (?) I can't say I'm an expert on that topic. I love Leone, but it never made me want to see other spaghetti westerns just because they're spaghetti westerns. I've seen a few, and have a lot more on my long list of movies to see.

To me, Leone's films are not that violent. They were for their time, but they are more remembered now for their style. The violence in his films seem to be more about the buildup rather than carnage. There is usually a great lead into the violence, and then it's over rather quickly. The Tuco torture scene would be an exception. I don't see how the violence in Leone's films could've influenced Peckinpah.

Peckinpah's violence is characterized by quick editing, the use of slow motion and montage. If he ripped this style off of someone else, I'm not aware of it. If that's the case, I'd like to see it. As far as I know, he's pretty original in that respect. The man certainly had his own style. His films are unique in their depiction of violence and the recurrent themes he used. One of the things I like most about his films is how personal they are. I wouldn't credit him with inventing the Western, as that's obviously untrue. Which leads me to ask what credit you feel Peckinpah has been unjustly given?

I wouldn't say that Leone's work bears a strong influence from Peckinpah. I just don't see it. Leone has such a distinct style, it's hard for me to imagine anyone else having anything to do with it. Maybe David Lean, in terms of the scope. Every Leone film feels like an epic. I think it's telling that he made such few films. They're all so fully realized, and I think Leone is only starting to get the credit he deserves. What a slap in the face that they butchered his last film like that. No one should have the right to tell a master like that how to do his job. Despicable. Especially considering some of the hacks making films today. They dont have a fraction of his vision, but they possess ten times the freedom to indulge themselves.

Regardless, in the end it doesn't really matter. I don't watch Peckinpah or Leone's films to see violence and carnage. It's the storytelling that keeps me coming back to them. Some of my friends suppose that I like violent movies. I say I like good movies that just happen to have a lot of violence.


"Well... that's just like, your opinion, man"
jerkface
Bandido
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 53

You eat guts.


« #9 : June 10, 2005, 11:44:50 AM »

Phew! Maybe I should change my name to WINDBAG.


"Well... that's just like, your opinion, man"
grandpa_chum
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 833



« #10 : June 10, 2005, 02:31:05 PM »

ok, 4 things I have to clarify... first I'm only a 19 year old american so the only information I really have on the subject is from watching television shows, surfing the internet and reading articles and books and things.

Second, when I was refering to peckinpah getting credit for violence that already existed in films over seas(spaghetti's specifically) I wasn't refering to leone, his movies are pretty mild when it comes to violence.  I was thinking of someone like corbucci. 

Third, the thing I constantly hear about the wild bunch, more than peckinpah himself, is that it is somehow revolutionary, the first of it's kind, and they mean themes, violence, direction, and story. The problem I have is that it looks so much like your average spaghetti western, plenty of which were made before 1969. Granted it is a great movie, but it's essentially peckinpah, a fantastic director, making an american spaghetti-like western, that is really the only way I see it as the first of it's kind... he, the wild bunch mostly, is given credit for revolutionizing the western, changing it, when clearly that was done a while ago with the european western. thats just the way I see it anyhow.

fourth, I'm pretty sure his slow motion stylized violence is of peckinpah's creation, I'm not claiming anything on that, it's part of the reason that peckinpah is my second favorite director.


Harmonica: So, you're not a businessman after all.
Frank: Just a man.
Harmonica: An ancient race...
Groggy
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11454


This post gets Agnew's stamp of approval!


« #11 : June 10, 2005, 04:31:59 PM »

First off, interesting topic!  ;D

I agree that both directors may have referenced each other.  I've not seen "The Getaway", so I can't comment on that, but "The Wild Bunch" has minor-but-noticeable references to Leone's films (the duster coats, the POV shot of the stagecoach, the blowing up of the bridge, the camera angle as Mapache's train pulls out of the telegraph station, etc.), as OUATITW appears to reference "Ride The High Country" (Joel McCrea's death scene=Cheyenne's), and certainly DYS to TWB (the pissing on the ants).  And Leone apparently used "Major Dundee" as something of a reference point when making GBU.



Saturday nights with Groggy
grandpa_chum
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 833



« #12 : June 10, 2005, 05:31:28 PM »

you know now that I think of it, the showdown at the end of Ride The High Country is the only showdown I've seen that resembles anything like a leone showdown, it reminds me of the GBU final showdown, only quicker...  It's hard to deny the influence they had on each other... I'm just trying to say that the Wild Bunch specifically, although one of the best westerns out there, was nothing revolutionary or new.


Harmonica: So, you're not a businessman after all.
Frank: Just a man.
Harmonica: An ancient race...
dave jenkins
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16065


"One banana, two banana, three banana, four...."


« #13 : June 10, 2005, 10:43:42 PM »

Gramps, TWB actually was revolutionary, but not for the reasons usually mentioned. Peckinpah's greatest innovation was his editing style, a departure from both the classical Hollywood practice and the approach Eisenstein (and his French New Wave followers) took. At the time it was released, TWB was composed of more separate pieces of film than any other movie that had come before it, and by a wide margin. Rapid cutting was a radical new practice, one that allowed P to show viewers a particular action from several points of view (including slo-mo) in quick succession. The intended result was not to keep viewers in the moment longer (although it did that), but to give a particular experience fuller expression. Viewers might then have a more complete understanding of an event (in the same way that a viewer of a cubist painting might be said to have a more complete understanding of the painter's subject).

Needless to say, this was very different from what Leone was up to, who was capable of some very long takes, and who seemed, at times, to be trying to bring time to a stop.

Frayling, in his new book, has a chapter called "The Leone Legacy" and makes the following point: "Reviewers at the time saw similarities in the two directors' approaches to violence, which was missing the point. True, both approaches were highly stylized. But Leone was interested in the rituals preceding violent confronatations; Peckinpah in the impact of a bullet as the gun was fired" (182).



"McFilms are commodities and, as such, must be QA'd according to industry standards."
Groggy
Bounty Killer
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11454


This post gets Agnew's stamp of approval!


« #14 : June 11, 2005, 05:07:52 AM »

Just out of curiosity, has Frayling stated his views on TWB?  I know that he refers to his children as "The Wild Bunch" in the introduction to his books, and has a big picture of "The Walk Thing" at the beginning of Spaghetti Westerns, even though that film really isn't one of those.  And yet I seem to recall him criticizing Peckinpah in that same book for being too concerned with historical accuracy (something I don't necessarily agree with).  Just curious.

In "Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid" (which I've not seen) I've heard that the death of Slim Pickens' character is based on that of Mr. Morton from OUATITW, for what it's worth.  ::)



Saturday nights with Groggy
: [1] 2 3  
« previous next »
:  



Visit FISTFUL-OF-LEONE.COM

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
0.074149