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: Leone's debt to Peckinpah  ( 17086 )
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« #15 : June 11, 2005, 05:54:38 AM »

Peckinpahs films - over violent and too much slow mo its worse than watching a John Woo film. Pat Garrett was Ok I suppose, what was the point of banning Straw Dogs I've seen worse on The Cartoon Network. Best place for old Sam is next to the Nevada Kid in My Name Is Nobody. Sergio owes as much to Peckin-yawn as Tuco owes to Angel Eyes.


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« #16 : June 12, 2005, 04:43:06 PM »

Peckinpahs films - over violent and too much slow mo its worse than watching a John Woo film. Pat Garrett was Ok I suppose, what was the point of banning Straw Dogs I've seen worse on The Cartoon Network. Best place for old Sam is next to the Nevada Kid in My Name Is Nobody. Sergio owes as much to Peckin-yawn as Tuco owes to Angel Eyes.

:o Go stuff yourself, you tasteless maroon.  :P



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« #17 : June 13, 2005, 02:23:17 AM »

Ha, yeah. Your post was very amusing, but honestly your taste stinks.

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« #18 : June 15, 2005, 09:37:38 AM »

Dave Jenkins brings up a good point about the editing in Peckinpah's films. I read a good chunk of this one book, Sam Peckinpah's Feature Films by Bernard Frank Dukore. In it the author goes into extraneous detail about the editing of his films. Kind of ridiculous actually. I can't remember the exact statistics, but it was one of the most heavily edited pictures of that time. Supposedly some of the cuts are so quick as to be imperceptible. All of Peckinpah's films are edited pretty damn well. Actually, The Getaway has a great opening sequence, in regards to the editing.

Groggy, about Pat Garrett and Billy The Kid... Slim Pickens death scene is quite memorable. Just about as memorable as him riding on a bomb in Dr. Strangelove. The guy had a knack for dying memorably. I'm not sure it's a reference to Morton in OUATITW, but who knows? Either way, it needs to be released on dvd NOW.

Grandpa Chum or anybody, I'd like to know what spaghetti westerns you might recommend. Corbucci or otherwise. I've got a bunch of them on my Netflix queue, not sure where to start. Although I must say, I don't expect any to be as good as Leone.


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« #19 : June 15, 2005, 10:22:32 AM »

when it comes to spaghettis in my mind there are only 3 directors that REALLY do it for me, Leone, Corbucci, And Castellari... given the nature of the thread I really have to recomend KEOMA, as it is like a big mix of Leone and Peckinpah... full of both operatic showdowns, slow motion deaths, extreme close-ups, and plenty of badass spaghetti western 'gags' to boot(I only call them gags for no other term to use, they aren't really meant for comedy but you probably get what I mean). In fact I don't think any other film even comes close to succeeding(or even attempting?) to meld the two greats' styles together.

Other than that companeros and the big gundown are the only other spaghettis that in my mind really stand up next to leone. there are plenty of good ones, but those are the three great ones, that i've seen anyhow.

after just typing all that I realize you probably have already seen those 3, unless you really are starting from scratch.


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« #20 : June 15, 2005, 12:29:58 PM »

Other than that companeros and the big gundown are the only other spaghettis that in my mind really stand up next to leone. there are plenty of good ones, but those are the three great ones, that i've seen anyhow.

after just typing all that I realize you probably have already seen those 3, unless you really are starting from scratch.

Actually, I haven't seen them. I love Leone, but I'm a bit of a novice as far as spaghetti westerns go. Isn't "The Big Gundown" really hard to find? The others are in my queue.

Speaking of spaghetti westerns, I've always felt that the term was sort of inappropriate. By now it's an accepted handle that's been applied to the genre. However, I think it belittles the achievements of Leone and other Italian filmmakers. To less informed people it pretty much says "badly dubbed, poorly made westerns made by a bunch of greaseballs who don't know anything about the west." Maybe I'm taking it too seriously, but believe me it's not something I lose sleep about. I just can't help but think that the term has contributed to Leone's lack of recognition..

This is me in my darkest hour of political correctness.


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« #21 : July 12, 2005, 05:40:03 AM »

Dave, Richard Bright was also in "Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid", but I think it's more likely that Leone knew him from "The Godfather" films (he was Michael's bodyguard in all three).



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« #22 : July 13, 2005, 11:15:52 PM »

Thanks, Groggy, those are both good things to know.



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« #23 : July 14, 2005, 10:14:36 AM »

I think the safest thing to say is that both men were aware of each other's work, but both men shot entierly different looking pictures.

As stated above, Sam's innovation was not his use of bloody squibs, or his use of slow motion. Rather it was his use of multiple cameras running at different speeds covering the same action, then cutting them with rapid fire editing, something not done since the silent era.

Poor Elisha Cook Jnr's death is SHANE is still powerfully violent, even today (I'm always surprised when Jack Palance pulls the trigger, no matter how often I watch it). And slow motion violence was not new in the Western either. Paul Newman bit the dust in slow mo in THE LEFT HANDED GUN way back in 1958.

If anything influenced this, it was probabaly the slow motion death in the duel near the start of THE SEVEN SAMURAI, which brings us neatly to the one film-maker who undoubtedly did influence Leone, Akira Kurasawa.


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« #24 : July 14, 2005, 03:05:01 PM »

Peckinpah often acknowledged his debt to Kurosawa, though the slow-motion violence in "Seven Samurai" is nowhere near as violent or protracted as in, say, "The Wild Bunch". 

As I've said before, I think Peckinpah and Leone may have cross-referenced each other's work in their various films, but I hardly think you could say either has a "debt" to the other.



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« #25 : July 15, 2005, 12:06:25 AM »


As stated above, Sam's innovation was not his use of bloody squibs, or his use of slow motion. Rather it was his use of multiple cameras running at different speeds covering the same action, then cutting them with rapid fire editing, something not done since the silent era.

Interestingly, I recently watched _Jules and Jim_ (for the first time) and noticed that the scene in which Jeanne Moreau throws herself into the canal was shot, apparently, in a very similar way. At any rate, you see her (or her stunt double) falling through space from three different angles is rapid succession. Could Peckinpah have been inspired by this?



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« #26 : July 15, 2005, 01:44:33 AM »


If anything influenced this, it was probabaly the slow motion death in the duel near the start of THE SEVEN SAMURAI, which brings us neatly to the one film-maker who undoubtedly did influence Leone, Akira Kurasawa.
Was Kurosawa influenced by PUDOVKIN ? Check out his slo-mo work in the stunning DESERTER (1933).


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« #27 : July 15, 2005, 05:06:25 AM »

Interestingly, I recently watched _Jules and Jim... Could Peckinpah have been inspired by this?

Peckinpah had already shot with multiple cameras. When Lou Lombardo, the young editor Sam had hired to cut THE WILD BUNCH showed him a slow mo death sequence he had assembled for a TV show called FELONY SQUAD, he instantly saw what he would experiment with, shooting in Mexico far from studio interference. If he was inspired by any one it was Lombardo.

Truffaut, whatever I may think of him as a film maker (not much) had a huge fund of his own to work from as a critic. He is himself possibly quoting from Abel Gance's NAPOLEON or Carl Dreyer's PASSION OF JOAN OF ARC.

If JULES ET JIM inspired anything, how about the menage a trois in GIU LA TESTA?


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« #28 : July 15, 2005, 05:41:10 AM »

"Major Dundee" featured lengthy slow-motion battle scenes before it was cut by the studio.



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« #29 : July 15, 2005, 04:05:02 PM »

Peckinpah had already shot with multiple cameras. When Lou Lombardo, the young editor Sam had hired to cut THE WILD BUNCH showed him a slow mo death sequence he had assembled for a TV show called FELONY SQUAD, he instantly saw what he would experiment with, shooting in Mexico far from studio interference. If he was inspired by any one it was Lombardo.

Truffaut, whatever I may think of him as a film maker (not much) had a huge fund of his own to work from as a critic. He is himself possibly quoting from Abel Gance's NAPOLEON or Carl Dreyer's PASSION OF JOAN OF ARC.

If JULES ET JIM inspired anything, how about the menage a trois in GIU LA TESTA?
Now that's a thought.

What kind of time-frame are we talking about on this Peckinpah and Lombardo thing? Before SP had even started making features? Also, which (possible) quotes from Gance and Dreyer are you referring to? I'm not looking for an exhaustive list, just a fer-instance or two.



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