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Author Topic: WaR iS HeLL BuT WHaT oPTioN WaS THeRe?  (Read 15240 times)
jouissance
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« on: March 25, 2003, 01:56:51 PM »

Hola Amigos,

I know this is a tender subject for many but I was watching GBU this weekend and reflected on it's message. Many critics miss read Leone's intension, which I think was to say war is hell but sometimes it is necessary. I think it also deals with three Characters who look at the war in different ways and as a result deal with varying experiences. I have also been watching the tv like all of you have been doing. These faux hippies really think there hot stuff but I wonder if their band-Wagoner’s or just wanna-be intellectuals that want to go back to the days of protest during the V.N. War. I listened to their arguments and most of them seem rather silly, such as "What have the Iraqi People done to you?" Well the war is not on the Iraqi People but their leader who doesn't give a rat's (you know what) about them.
The Civil War (GBU) was awful but what choice did Lincoln have? Many Northerns or France (Frogs) or England could have said, "What did the Plantation Owners ever do to you?" Again the question doesn't really deal with the issue now does it.
I pray Bush and his associates have the proper information and they are using it properly. I think they are and all these faux hippies don't really know what they know. I think it is fine if they protest but please, do a bit of research and protest for the right reasons, cuz as a wise man once said, "War is ugly but being coward is even uglier."

DID I OPEN A CAN OF WORMS?

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Halis
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2003, 07:03:33 AM »

The other option to War was to roll over and go back to sleep.
Saddam could have then continued torturing and murdering his own people and stealing the wealth of the country for his own gratification. France could have continued trading with him and so could the Russians.
Somewhere along the line Saddam would have got some Nuclear capability and started threatening the other Arab Nations. He'd then attack Kuwait again so he had better port facilities and even more Oil, and it's anyone's guess which other Arab Nation would be next on the list. Meanwhile, he'd continue to allow terrorist camps to operate in Iraq, and he'd make sure to sell lethal weapons of mass destruction to any terrorists who wanted to destroy the West.

I'm really pleased the US, UK, Spain, Portugal, Australia and a few others decided not to go to sleep.


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noodles_leone
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2003, 12:13:55 PM »

ok, my english isn't perfect, but i will try to explain what i think.

Ok, Saddam is the "bad guy", bush isn't. That's right.
Ok, Saddam MAY have massiv destruction weapons, and if he has, war is justified.

But does somebody here know if Saddam has that? You don't, i don't, everybody doesn't. (as says tuco).

So, don't be so simplist, guys: we don't have enough informations to know who's right, france or usa...

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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2003, 12:16:22 PM »

and remember: i'm french, but i'm not a pacifist. And i'm not a coward. I don't think that to be coward or not is the question.

Jouissance, don't forget the problem...

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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2003, 02:37:29 PM »

I don't think I am forgetting the problem and I possible did not make myself clear... In my mind Mr. S does have weapons of mass destruction and he has killed HIS OWN people to see if they work or to get rid of them. So this is the perspective I'm coming from (I do have a bit of faith in US intelligence and feel Bush's team is tell us the truth). I do think France and Russia, because of their self-interests are keeping their butts out of this and let's be honest the US has done the same in many situations. I don't agree with the official French position nor many of the peace protestors. I don't think their reasoning makes much sense. Protest if you want (we are luck in the US of A to have that right) but for goodness sakes do it for the right reasons and with the best information available. Also, to clarify, not all Americans, Iraqis, French, etc are for or against the war. Thus, I was speaking specific groups.

By the way, your English is very good.


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noodles_leone
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2003, 10:50:12 AM »

ok, if you think you've got enough informations to have your own opinion, you're right.

Thanks for the english Smiley

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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2003, 04:06:59 PM »

Hola Jouissance! There are two kinds of countries in the world those with WMD and those without.

If Sadam has WMD we will see, he will use them to go out with a big bang.

Just remember ( to paraphrase a statement from Vietnam) in order to save Bagdad we just might have to destroy it.

My only complaint is the self rightious attitude of our current administration, screw the world on Kyoto and the World Court, but chip in to rebuild Iraq. Nothing is black and white. Lets hope a better world is the result.

Here is a New York Times, Tom Friedman article to ponder:

! was in a restaurant at Chicago's O'Hare Airport on Sunday, and it had an NCAA basketball game playing on the TV at one end of the bar and the Iraq war on the other. Most people were watching the basketball game probably because it's so much easier to keep score. How will we know if we are winning in Iraq? Here are six things I am watching for:

(1) Have we occupied Baghdad without leveling the whole city? This war is not being fought simply to disarm the regime of Saddam Hussein. It is being fought to replace that regime with a decent, accountable Iraqi government. That is the real prize here, because only such a government can stabilize Iraq and ensure that another Saddam-like general does not emerge. That can't even begin to happen until the capital has been taken by U.S. and British forces.
(2) Have we killed, captured or expelled Saddam? President Bush keeps saying that this war is not against one man. Nonsense. We have been chasing one man in Iraq for 12 years, and it is essential that he be eliminated because until and unless he is, Iraqis will never express what they really think and feel. Indeed, average Iraqis will not even know what they really feel until the dictator who has run their lives with an iron fist for more than 30 years is removed and they are certain that he is not coming back. (Do not rule out, even now, an Arab-brokered deal for Saddam to leave peacefully.)
(3) Have we been able to explain why some Iraqi forces are putting up such a fierce fight? Are these the most elite, pampered Special Republican Guard units, who have benefited most from Saddam's rule and are therefore willing to fight to preserve it? Or are these primarily Sunni Muslim units, terrified that with the fall of Saddam the long reign of the Sunnis of Iraq will end and they will be replaced by the Shiite majority? Or is this happening because even Iraqis who detest Saddam love their homeland and hate the idea of a U.S. occupation and these Iraqis are ready to resist a foreign occupier, even one that claims to be a liberator? Knowing the answer is critical for how we reconstruct Iraq. It is not at all unusual for Arabs to detest both their own dictator and a foreign occupier. (See encyclopedia for Israel, invasion of Lebanon, 1982.)
(4) Have we won this war and preserved the territorial integrity of Iraq? We can't rebuild Iraq if we can't hold it together. Both the Kurds and the Turks would like to bite off part of northern Iraq. The Bush team claims to be committed to preserving Iraq's unity, in which case it had better tell both the Turks and the Kurds: "Which part of `no' don't you understand? You Turks are not coming in, and you Kurds are not breaking away."
(5) Has an authentic Iraqi liberal nationalist emerged from the U.S. occupation to lead the country? Some pundits are already nominating their favorite Iraqi opposition figures to be Iraq's next leader. My gut tells me the only person who is going to be able to rule Iraq effectively is someone who has lived through Saddam's reign, not sat it out in London or Washington, and who is ready to say no to both tyranny and foreign control in Iraq. But even if he is an Iraqi exile, the next leader of Iraq has to emerge through some sort of consensual process from within Iraq. If the Bush team intends to force Iraq's next leader to quickly embrace Israel, if it intends to impose someone who has been dining with Richard Perle, such a leader will never take root.
(6) Is the Iraqi state that emerges from this war accepted as legitimate by Iraq's Arab and Muslim neighbors? That is very important, both for the viability of whatever Iraqi leadership follows Saddam, and for the liberalizing effect it may have on others in the neighborhood. In the absence of any U.N. endorsement for this war, the successor regime to Saddam will have to legitimize itself by becoming something that Arabs and Muslims will point to and say, "We don't like how this was done, but we have to admit America helped build something better in our neighborhood." This outcome is crucial.
If you see these things happening, you'll know that the political ends for which this war was launched are being achieved. If you don't, you'll know we're lost in a sandstorm.  

Mr. Friedman has been working on a documentary entitled "Searching for the Roots of 9/11" for The New York Times and the Discovery Channel. It will be broadcast April 1 on the Discovery Times Channel at 8, Eastern time.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2003, 04:08:18 PM by cigar joe » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2003, 05:46:41 PM »

crikey, that was a long one.
everyone has expressed interesting points, but no-one seems to know if this war is right or wrong.
I dont hold Bush or Blair in high esteem, both hippocrites, but at least someone has had the balls to address these tyrants, lets hope it is for right reasons, and lets hope they address other dictatorships after they've finished with this one. It's ashame the rest of Europe didnt stand up and be counted, nothing new there then.
I saw a documentary about the Kurds on BBC2 the other night. Any one who saw it will agree, Iraq must be liberated.

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jouissance
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2003, 06:05:46 PM »

I hope this is not trivializing the point but I am fond of Leone's take of society and governments if you will. To me what is so appealing about "THE MAN WITH NO NAME (yes I know he has a name but it is so much more fun that he doesn't)" is the fact that he can see through the ROJO's of the world and also see the stupidity of the BELL RINGER(S) or JUAN.
Now this is not to say Government and Society are not necessary and important...they are. I think we just need to be a little more sharp when it come understanding the facts. Cigar Joe and Angel Eyes you both have valid points... Let's just keep our eyes open...


God Bless,

Jouis

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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2003, 12:02:08 PM »

Hi ,
I ' m a big fantic of Sergio Leone.
The good , the bad and the ugly is one of the most anti-war movie i never see..

My english is also bad.

The question is which is the goal of this war :
disarme Hussein, "liberate" Irak ?
The answer for me is clear to take controle of the irakian oil and to protect Israel.
The first contracts for rebuilding post-war Iraq have been awarded, and Vice President Dick Cheney's old employer, Halliburton Co., is one of the early winners.

This war will became the second Vietnam for the Bush administration.
The Iraki and Arab people will RESIST until their death.

Who run USA today , Bush ? no he is only able to run his dog. In a letter to President Clinton dated January 26, 1998, the actual administration (Rumsfielfd ,Perle ,Wolfovitz ,..all of them support inconditionally Israel) called for "the removal of Saddam Hussein's regime from power," and in a letter dated May 29, 1998, to Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich and Senator Trent Lott, they complained that Clinton had not listened to them, reiterating their recommendation that Saddam Hussein be overthrown. They added, "We should establish and maintain a strong U.S. military presence in the region, and be prepared to use that force to protect our vital interests in the [Persian] Gulf-and, if necessary, to help remove Saddam from power." The letters were signed by Donald Rumsfeld; William Kristol, editor of the right-wing Weekly Standard magazine and chairman of PNAC; Elliott Abrams, the convicted Iran-Contra conspirator whom Bush appointed director of Middle Eastern policy on the National Security Council in 2002; Paul Wolfowitz, now Rumsfeld's deputy at the Pentagon; John Bolton, now undersecretary of state for arms control and international security; Richard Perle, now chairman of the Defense Science Board; William J. Bennett, President Reagan's education secretary; Richard Armitage, now Colin Powell's deputy at the State Department; Zalmay Khalilzad, former UNOCAL consultant and Bush's ambassador to Afghanistan; and several other prominent American militarists. In addition to the letter-signatories, Dick Cheney; I. Lewis Libby, now Cheney's chief of staff; Stephen Cambone, a Pentagon bureaucrat in both Bush administrations; and many others founded PNAC. They have made their ideas readily available in a September 2000 report entitled "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces, and Resources for a New Century" and in a book edited by Robert Kagan and William Kristol.

Vive la France !


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jouissance
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2003, 09:00:13 AM »

Amigo,

I can see that you have at least done your research and I respect your perspective...

As in GBU, not all is as it seems and as our loveable, yet sometimes blinded Tuco demostrates, when driven by emotion we can't always see clearly...

I am not saying the US has not foreign interests involved...we do. But to simple state that the US is involved to take Iraqi oil and to do Israel's dirty work is either anti-semite or very simplistic. Might I remind you that the main reason why France (Viva, yes for their own self interests) and Russia are not getting involved is not for noble reasons rather they too want to protect oil interests of their own. Their own companies. I'm sure the US is involved in this war for many reasons but the US has not sought war an the Saudi's for their oil. Hussein and his faction are a threat to regional stability and the treatment of his people IS ruthless (according to the present administration and I'm sure they have valid information as to this threat). I don't like war but their are worse options (look at history and the Germans... Hitler wasn't stopped by anyone until it was way too late. Which reminds me, I think the French Gov. were bed-fellows with Hitler until they realised their self-interests were in danger... funny how history repeats itself...

Viva Self Interest

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« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2003, 08:12:21 AM »

North Korea ,Mongolia , China , SAUDI ARABIA, Lybia , Zimbabwe , .. Good luck and hard work America..This war should cost 2000000000000 $$$for America..I can' t believe that the Bush administration which is pro Sharon (and it 's not anti-semitic it 's the reality) do this war only to "liberate " the Iraki people !!!

VIVA SERGIO LEONE AND JOUISSANCE


Saddam and Ben laden were "build" by the American.


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Angel Eyes
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« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2003, 02:46:36 PM »

I  think if I were Israel and Saddam had been dropping bombs on me and calling for mine and my peoples eradication, I'd probably seek his removal.

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jouissance
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« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2003, 05:13:10 PM »

Well Said Angel Eyes...

At least America is starting somewhere (and this is not to say the US's foreign policy should be on a level standard but as our amigo said it does get expensive now doesn't it)!

I'm glad that at least Israel has a few loyal friends (they need it)!

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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2003, 11:35:19 AM »

Ola gringos

Who drops bombs on the palestinian people NOW : ISRAEL

Who eradicate the palestinian people NOW :ISRAEL

Who is the colonizator of the palestinian territory NOW :ISRAEL

Who call to the extermination of the palestinians :
ISRAEL

Who call for the expulsion of the palestinians from THEIR territory NOW: ISRAEL

WHO support NOW SHARON and his politic  :the Bush 's administration (Rumsfeld,Perle, Wolfovitz and others )

Amigos the foreign American policy MUST change if you want  more peace in this world (..and not only the peace for the American people)


Question :  Why the world hate  USA  ?


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